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iusedtoberich
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01-12-2018, 12:12 PM

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Originally Posted by islandboy View Post
I agree. I feel the slower cloth was conducive to using draw because it made it easier to gauge cue ball speed. With the new, super slick, more frictionless felt, precise draw is very difficult to control because the cue ball slides a great deal more before the draw takes effect.

Back then, you had to develop a good stroke in order to draw the ball the length of the table. Nowadays, you can almost hit a stop shot and draw the ball.

JMHO.
I thought from the 70's and on, Simonis 760 was the main tournament cloth. If so, today's 860 is actually slower. I don't know the exact time 760 came out, but thought it was the 70's. (I did not start playing until the 90's).
  
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Straightpool_99
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01-12-2018, 05:06 PM

Thanks to all who have replied.

Let me clarify my position:

1. OF COURSE I do NOT draw EVERY shot! That would be idiotic.

2. This whole thing started because I've been playing this guy I just can't seem to beat. On the surface, we are not that far apart playing wise. He gets out of line more rarely though. This started me thinking and observing him carefully. I noticed that he never follows with extreme high, but rather uses stun-run through and more power, while I tended to shoot some of these shots with a high ball. I started experimenting and on our fast rails, the ball just takes off like a rocket with a high ball making it hard to be precise.

He also had a very slight edge in shotmaking, again...Low ball, or at least lower than I use.

After some experimentation and further thinking, I figured out that for me at least, a low ball is better. I get better position and make more shots cleanly in the center of the pocket. This extends to stun or even stun-run-throughs sometimes. But I've almost stopped rolling the ball with pure follow all together. Too many bad things have happened, and I'm determined to break that pattern.

3. Whenever a shot has two equally valid ways to get on it, I chose draw. That's all. This may be wrong for everyone in the universe except me, but I don't care. Sometimes I shoot the draw option, even when the roll option is theoretically better, as well. It's a matter of personal preference and maybe someone will find it interesting enought to try it, maybe not.

4. I recognize the fact that under certain conditions, my preferences may change, however under current trends, cushions get faster and faster and I do not see that changing any time soon.
  
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Black-Balled
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01-12-2018, 05:41 PM

A lot of us can often boss the balls around, but the really good players use a very similar (aka: more frequent, aka:more repeatable) hit speed on the majority of their shots.

That means they are taking easier shots, all else equal.

I think he is going with the flow and you are making shit happen. I like to make shit happen, unfortunately

1. Don't be idiotic.


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01-12-2018, 06:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Straightpool_99 View Post
I don't know about you guys, but I'm drawing for my dough, that's for sure. Ok, 3 cushion and big ball bar box excluded, but still.

I'm going to assume that the player in question has a decent stroke and is not a beginner, also that modern conditions apply. No "rag" cushions or rug cloth. There is a huge difference between a C player draw stroke and that of a better player. We'll assume that the player in question knows how to get action with a soft stroke.

1. Draw minimizes throw. That may seem like a theoretical point, but it really isn't. Who hasn't seen a cut shot turn and wobble in the pocket because of follow? Hit a cut shot with draw, and not only will it throw less, it virtually guaranteees that the object ball will travel straight as well.

2. Draw "cuts off the table" minimizing cueball travel and rail contact. Extremely important in these times of "pinball cushions" and ultra fast cloths. Once you touch that rail, god knows what will happen. With draw, typically the cushion contacts are softer than typical follow shots, which have more cueball speed at cushion contact.

3. Draw lets you see the whole ball, thus making aiming easier. Again, seems minor, but it really isn't.

4. Draw makes it easy to kill the ball.It will let you shoot fairly firm, ensuring straight travel, yet have a low speed at the impact time.

5. Who wants to shoot power follow shots? Seriously, how often do you see top players do that when there is even a hint of a different option? They are the toughest shots in pool.
Wrong (in my opinion). I know a hustler, professional player that wants to roll his ball into the next shots for the last 3-4-5 shots of 9-10 ball. He says it is so much easier to get the shape when the pressure is on. I believe him. Can you draw a ball back one diamond, one diamond and 1/2, two diamonds, etc. etc. Sooo much easier with follow as you know. Draw requires a commitment, anything less will be a stop shot or half the draw needed. Follow will always be more precise.


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  (#35)
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01-12-2018, 06:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
Wrong (in my opinion). I know a hustler, professional player that wants to roll his ball into the next shots for the last 3-4-5 shots of 9-10 ball. He says it is so much easier to get the shape when the pressure is on. I believe him. Can you draw a ball back one diamond, one diamond and 1/2, two diamonds, etc. etc. Sooo much easier with follow as you know. Draw requires a commitment, anything less will be a stop shot or half the draw needed. Follow will always be more precise.
That's ok. Just watching Ronnie O'Sullivan taking a rack apart on youtube right now...Not a whole lotta rolling going on, but QUITE a lot of draw./stun. One big power follow into the rack, which is atypical, otherwise 99% draw/stun. Some rolls later in the rack, but when the precise touch is needed, the stun/draw comes out. Just saying. Anyway, if rolling works for you, you should stick to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ6KaXIIbZw

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01-12-2018, 07:42 PM

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Originally Posted by fjk View Post
The game has changed a lot in the past 30 years. Back in the 80's most pros used draw as their first choice. Jim Rempe once told me draw is your more accurate shot because the bridge is lower and more stable. I tend to use draw shots quite a bit the maneuvering through a rack. I think it's a mistake though. Today's pros use natural follow whenever possible.
Nope - can't agree. The game has not changed at all. Same tables. Same balls. What has changed is how folks approach the game and the equipment they use. I'll put my money on an old man with a $100 cue against some kid with $3000 worth of crap any day of the week.


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01-12-2018, 07:51 PM

I was playing my best pool one day and a guy said to me, when I'm on I really feel I'm following well.

I told him I'm just the opposite, my draw is on.

Controlled draw is a bit harder imo than follow. Of course, I think that until I need the cb to roll half a diamond of follow.

If you check my past posts, you'll see one of my most important drills to me is stop, follow, draw. One diamond follow/draw various length shots, bring the cb straight back, straight forward and stop w out the cb moving rt or left.

You gotta have both if you're ever thinking of controlling stun line.

The last year I've watched pros play a lot. Shots I would have drawn a couple ball widths, pros follow and come off the rail for position. It takes less effort, more margin for error.

Watching 2017 U.S. Open 8 ball, SVB vs Pagulayan, SVB runs the first rack, no draw. Third rack, one draw, one stun, the rest follow, including a strong follow for key ball out on 8.


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01-12-2018, 08:10 PM

I think most people would be better served not worrying so much about what stroke they should use more/less of, and focus more on pattern play and what the pattern dictates you use. YMMV


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01-12-2018, 08:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Fields View Post
I think most people would be better served not worrying so much about what stroke they should use more/less of, and focus more on pattern play and what the pattern dictates you use. YMMV
but it is true that shooting that ball that is hanging around the side pocket by rolling instead of drawing is gonna save you some losses.


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Another third for roads and cops.
Don't kid yourself that it's ever gonna stop


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...he loves pool, but he lost his love for pool halfway through the one pocket...
  
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01-12-2018, 09:06 PM

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Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
Wrong (in my opinion). I know a hustler, professional player that wants to roll his ball into the next shots for the last 3-4-5 shots of 9-10 ball. He says it is so much easier to get the shape when the pressure is on. I believe him. Can you draw a ball back one diamond, one diamond and 1/2, two diamonds, etc. etc. Sooo much easier with follow as you know. Draw requires a commitment, anything less will be a stop shot or half the draw needed. Follow will always be more precise.
Similarly the 2 and 3 railers give you a wider margin to hit the OB than a 1-rail kick. I think you are onto something.


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01-12-2018, 09:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Ched View Post
Nope - can't agree. The game has not changed at all. Same tables. Same balls. What has changed is how folks approach the game and the equipment they use. I'll put my money on an old man with a $100 cue against some kid with $3000 worth of crap any day of the week.
My old man playing off the wall can kick your old man's a$$. Of course he does re-tip the cues at the bar.


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01-13-2018, 12:57 AM

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Originally Posted by tucson9ball View Post
That is an old saying that basically states.....the path of the cue ball is a certainty with follow. The path with draw is not as precise.
Obviously there are shots that require using draw but if you are given the choice of simply following through the object ball or drawing to a certain position....follow is the more sure way to get a precise path of the cue ball.
The path of the cb with draw can be determined just as precisely as with follow. you just have to know how to do it.

Check out Dr. Dave's material.
  
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01-13-2018, 05:46 AM

I understand where the OP is coming from. There are very few top players that roll the ball when there are other options. Actually, the only player I can think of that likes to is Ralf Souquet.
  
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01-13-2018, 06:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Fields View Post
I think most people would be better served not worrying so much about what stroke they should use more/less of, and focus more on pattern play and what the pattern dictates you use. YMMV
thats the crux of the matter at hand.

and depending on the styles of patterns we naturally go for will dictate wether we are predisposed to shoot more follow or draw.

I built up a follow game young due to learning to play with a rock the size of deschaines head/trumps ego, pick one lol.

Slow cloth always seemed to retard follow but helps action on draws particuraly stun and stop shots, so Parica being a draw guy makes sense....matter of fact i've never seen any of them use follow consistently like you see with a player like Earl or Matlock do.

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01-13-2018, 07:49 AM

I've generally followed this rule. But in pool, there always exceptions to this rule. Instead of following all the way down table then backup, I would use draw. I really only use draw for short distances and use follow for the rest. To me, follow is much more reliable and easier to visualize than draw. You can also use follow to kill off the cushion as well. But in the end, its personal preference and skill that determines if follow or draw is used. But its always nice to do a table length draw. That really makes me smile.
  
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