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JohnnyP
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01-13-2018, 08:27 AM

One drawback with follow is unintended spin. It will change the rebound angle.
  
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Bob Jewett
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01-13-2018, 08:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
The path of the cb with draw can be determined just as precisely as with follow. you just have to know how to do it.

Check out Dr. Dave's material.
The problem is that it takes a lot of practice to get the cue ball to arrive at the object ball with the desired quality of draw, where quality is defined as the amount of draw in proportion to the speed of the cue ball. In the case of follow, if the cue ball is rolling smoothly on the cloth, the quality of the follow is extremely consistent without any effort from the player. (It is the quality of the draw/follow that determines the carom angle.)

On a half-ball follow shot, the deflection angle of the cue ball is 35 degrees within a degree even for beginners. On a half-ball draw shot the deflection angle is 90 degrees only if you manage to get the cue ball to arrive at the object ball with just the right amount of (lively) draw. Beginners will not be able to control that angle within 15 degrees for a range of conditions.

Consider breaking out a cluster. Would you rather have a stun or follow shot to do it or would you rather have a draw shot? Which is more likely to land on the ball you want to hit and on the side of the ball you want to hit?


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01-13-2018, 09:00 AM

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Originally Posted by JohnnyP View Post
One drawback with follow is unintended spin. It will change the rebound angle.
I don't understand the point. Why is unintended spin not a problem with draw in the same way?


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01-13-2018, 10:04 AM

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Originally Posted by Neil View Post
The path of the cb with draw can be determined just as precisely as with follow. you just have to know how to do it.

Check out Dr. Dave's material.
While that is true, I have found that drawing for position is trickier and appears to be more difficult to pull off because a different type of stroke needs to be used to change the path many times.

The cue ball path will change depending on whether you use a quick snap back draw (straighter path back) versus more of a drag or stun draw (which will curve the cue ball out a ways before the draw catches). While it's true that the same type of stroke effects come into play using follow (force follow, stun, and rolling), they just seem harder to control for most people when using draw.


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Bob Jewett
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01-13-2018, 10:07 AM

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Originally Posted by Get_A_Grip View Post
While that is true, I have found that drawing for position is trickier and appears to be more difficult to pull off because a different type of stroke needs to be used to change the path many times.

The cue ball path will change depending on whether you use a quick snap back draw (straighter path back) versus more of a drag or stun draw (which will curve the cue ball out a ways before the draw catches). While it's true that the same type of stroke effects come into play using follow (force follow, stun, and rolling), they just seem harder to control for most people when using draw.
Another problem is that the draw path changes a lot with conditions, especially how clean the equipment is. That makes it harder to control even for experienced players.


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01-13-2018, 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
The path of the cb with draw can be determined just as precisely as with follow. you just have to know how to do it.

Check out Dr. Dave's material.
The problem is that it takes a lot of practice to get the cue ball to arrive at the object ball with the desired quality of draw, where quality is defined as the amount of draw in proportion to the speed of the cue ball. In the case of follow, if the cue ball is rolling smoothly on the cloth, the quality of the follow is extremely consistent without any effort from the player. (It is the quality of the draw/follow that determines the carom angle.)

On a half-ball follow shot, the deflection angle of the cue ball is 35 degrees within a degree even for beginners. On a half-ball draw shot the deflection angle is 90 degrees only if you manage to get the cue ball to arrive at the object ball with just the right amount of (lively) draw. Beginners will not be able to control that angle within 15 degrees for a range of conditions.

Consider breaking out a cluster. Would you rather have a stun or follow shot to do it or would you rather have a draw shot? Which is more likely to land on the ball you want to hit and on the side of the ball you want to hit?
Excellent post, Bob. Very well stated.

For those who can control the "quality of draw" (based on stroke speed, tip contact point control, and a good feel for cloth drag action), CB direction can be predicted fairly accurately (as suggested by Neil) using the trisect system and with "tweener" approximations demonstrated in the following video:

NV B.68 - Tweener cluster breaks, from VEPS I

CB direction can be predicted accurately for all types of shots using all of the resources available here:

where the CB goes for different types of shots

As you point out, CB direction, and travel distance, can be predicted the most accurately with follow shots.

Regards,
Dave
  
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01-13-2018, 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Another problem is that the draw path changes a lot with conditions, especially how clean the equipment is. That makes it harder to control even for experienced players.
For those interested, the effects of faster speed and slicker conditions, which apply to follow shots also, are illustrated and demonstrated here:

CB trajectory speed effects

Enjoy,
Dave
  
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01-13-2018, 12:56 PM

The problem with relying on draw( applying low to bring the CB back from the tangent line) on a majority of your position, is that the angel at which you can use it is only 10-25%, depending on how good your stroke is, off the aim line.

Your shot needs to be nearly straight in to draw; otherwise your CB is going forward of the tangent, regardless of cueing low.

This is the reason for the importance of getting on the correct side of the OB.

A majority of the time when I observe professionals using draw, they got the wrong side of the OB, not enough of angle on the correct side of the OB, or the “table” or opponent left them no choice but to draw.

Because drawing back eliminates most of the angles which you can play, it makes sense to learn how to get on the correct side off the OB and effectively use follow.

That being said, every aspiring player also needs to be able to use draw effectively.


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01-13-2018, 08:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I don't understand the point. Why is unintended spin not a problem with draw in the same way?
Bob:

I was thinking of the case where the cue ball is mid table, and you have to decide whether to draw a foot or follow to the bottom rail and back.
  
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mikewhy
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01-13-2018, 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyP View Post
Bob:

I was thinking of the case where the cue ball is mid table, and you have to decide whether to draw a foot or follow to the bottom rail and back.
Sure. The choice is following into the rail and spinning to control how you come off, versus drawing and not hitting the rail.

This whole discussion, in my mind, is of personal deficiencies, not one of fundamental truths.

I would be more free with using forward roll if "less spin is mo' better" didn't apply to my current skills. Natural roll is familiar and consistent, being the natural, no extra effort needed state of things. The distinction for me in this discussion is english, spin off the rail, rather than the high or low.

I prefer stun with centerline spin by default, which gives usably and predictable tangent line departure. Plus or minus from there to control direction. Dead stop or very short stun through even 10 feet away is reliable. Draw control is not a problem.

Basically, I developed my draw game to a very high level, and rely on it when given the choice. For others, draw might not be the strong suit, and they'll chose the other route. I'm working on using the rails like Earl, but am still a long ways away.

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Bob Jewett
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01-14-2018, 09:43 AM

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Originally Posted by JohnnyP View Post
Bob:

I was thinking of the case where the cue ball is mid table, and you have to decide whether to draw a foot or follow to the bottom rail and back.
I agree that in a case like getting from the 2 to nearly straight on the 3 to the side that getting the cushion involved can be a problem. Is that the sort of shot you meant?
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I think the problem is the cushion and not the choice of draw/follow when both would work. Getting from the 4 to the 5 is a similar situation but reversed. The stun follow will avoid a chance of unintended side screwing up the shot. For some straightness the stun becomes too hard because it requires too much speed and you have to go with the draw.

I think the choice is often governed by what the player is used to and sometimes that's not due to conscious planning. Many years ago my position play consisted almost exclusively of draw shots. I could draw the ball like you wouldn't believe. What I didn't realize at the time was my awesome stroke was mostly due to the tiny cue balls in the rec room where I played -- they were more snooker size than pool size. I learned my lesson when I took my false stroke into town and the table came equipped with what looked like a big bar cue ball that had been polished with 200-grit sandpaper. If I had had any follow position my money might have lasted longer.


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01-14-2018, 10:52 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I learned my lesson when I took my false stroke into town and the table came equipped with what looked like a big bar cue ball that had been polished with 200-grit sandpaper. If I had had any follow position my money might have lasted longer.
There is that. I shoot a measle ball at home on a 9 footer. It takes a rack or two to dial in on, say, a 7 footer and an Aramith logo'ed magnetic cue. Don't you find about the same difference on rail and cloth conditions, venue to venue?

But now we're having a rational discussion and no longer choosing up sides on the bumpersticker slogan. Your diagram makes it easier for us to agree.
  
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01-14-2018, 11:04 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I agree that in a case like getting from the 2 to nearly straight on the 3 to the side that getting the cushion involved can be a problem. Is that the sort of shot you meant?
I would say you lined up straight on the 2 for the easy draw to get straight on the 3. If it sat more mid table, stunning to come off the side rail or rolling with or without inside might be more appropriate. Depending on a few things, including the unknown 4 ball line up.

PS. Looking again at the diagram... Stop or half diamond draw the 2. Soft roll off the 3 for the 4. Roll to come off the end rail on the 4 for mid table on the 5. The slogan wasn't needed or even useful, even though that's how things ended up.

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01-14-2018, 11:05 AM

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Originally Posted by mikewhy View Post
There is that. I shoot a measle ball at home on a 9 footer. It takes a rack or two to dial in on, say, a 7 footer and an Aramith logo'ed magnetic cue. Don't you find about the same difference on rail and cloth conditions, venue to venue?

But now we're having a rational discussion and no longer choosing up sides on the bumpersticker slogan. Your diagram makes it easier for us to agree.
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01-14-2018, 06:12 PM

I'll finish my thoughts on this matter with this:

MOST (but not all) of follow shots have the object ball relatively close to the cushion. Those who don't (short side shape for instance) are fairly rare and will be left out of my further discussion on the matter. The shots where no cusion is being contacted usually involve punting the ball, which as you may or may not know have HUGE issues with cling, as well as balls rolling off and you'd be better off shooting som sort of stun-run-through instead or even (gasp) draw the ball. When the ball is rolling slowly along the slate, it follows every curve and indentation in the slate as well as the cloth. Like a boat traveling slowly across wavy waters. When the ball has more speed (like with a draw or stun-run through (typically)) the ball acts like a boat hydroplaning. It sails atop the surface, straight and realatively unhindered. Since the balls will always start rolling naturally, isn't this merely an academic question? NO, because the biggest impact will be from rolling off before the object ball is contacted! Rolling off to the side 1/8 of an inch will usually not destroy a position shot, but it will certainly cause you to miss a pot if the error happens before the object ball is struck!

Lets talk about those shots where an object ball is fairly close to the cushion. Overspin is a huge problem on these shots. It's the phenomenon I illustrated earlier in the gif I shot. When you strike a ball completely full in the face, it stops dead while still spinning in place, then it picks up speed as the ball grabs the cloth and starts rolling forward reaching top speed as the ball gets to the natural roll. This phenomenon will also have an effect on balls that are cut, though the ball will not stop completely. With a short distance to travel to the cushion there is a great chance that the ball will bend back dramatically or at least not start rolling naturally (thus not getting to its top speed). Speed will be lost as a result and it will be very difficult to tell why it happened. The amount of speed lost varies with cut angle, distance and cloth slickness and is a nightmare to calculate. You will start questioning the cushions consistency before suspecting this cause of missed position probably. With slick cloth and fast cushions it's very tricky to get this under control because the bounciness of the cushion kicks the cueball out hard even if there is a trace of overspin still on it. Stun-run-throughs have a great advantage here. They have less problems with the overspin carrying all the way to the cushion. Getting overspin on a draw shot is rarely even a consideration, except on certain trickshots, but it can happen as well. But again, typically, draw shots either travel further to reach a cushion, or hit the cushion at a wider angle, thus minimizing the problem.

Generally I prefer striking the cushions at an angle, rather than straight up and down or across. I like my ball to travel slowly into and out from the cushion. I find the cushion to act more naturally at an angle and fewer "funny" things happen. Going straight up and down and hard into the cushion is very tough to control. Staying low on the cueball facilitates striking cueball at angles in many scenarios that are common, it also helps to keep the cueball speed down after contact.

Yes, it's easier for a complete beginner to roll the ball. Who cares what complete beginners do? Only instructors and the beginners themselves. Lets talk about what good players do instead.

Last edited by Straightpool_99; 01-14-2018 at 06:35 PM.
  
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