Turning Stone XXIII finals: Shaw vs Shane thread

I agree. When he was down that far to Shane there is almost no chance of him catching up. The game is essentially over. I miss watching players put packs together. Just like straight pool there is nothing more disheartening then watching someone run balls and your just hoping to get another chance at the table.

HawaiianEye said:

9-ball has historically been played as winner breaks. They also had a push-out option. Why do some people keep insisting that the game turn into some other game?

9-ball isn't another game...it is 9-ball.

If we are going to compare it to another sport, then let's try tennis. If everybody should get the same number of turns, should we not allow "aces" on the serve? Sure, both players have the opportunity to serve "aces", but if one person is hitting 95% of their "ace" attempts, should we outlaw them from doing that?

Quit trying to equate it to baseball, basketball, or even curdling.

One of the advantages of winner breaks is that it allows a player who is a couple games behind to catch up if they hit a gear. In alternate break format, if a player makes a mistake and loses a game and then they both break and run all of their respective racks, the player who made a single mistake or gets an unlucky roll is usually the loser.

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AtLarge said:

Good info, BL. I've had a reminder note in front of me for a while to do something similar, i.e., comparing the margin of victory under winner breaks vs. alternate breaks.

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That'd be awesome if you have time. Plus it might actually put this argument to rest

Tin Man said:

Do we know for sure that the shut outs in the US Open weren't forfeits?

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I don't believe so. I remember at the time, that's what happened. But I believe the final brackets reflect the actual scores. There are a couple matches where someone has a FF by their name. I think those are the matches where the player forfeited/didn't show up.


There were also two matches that started but didn't complete.

Appleton quit his winner's side match down 3-7 because of some neck pain IIRC.
Earl quit his loser's side match down 7-9 because, well, he's Earl.

Poolmanis said:

Winner break is always what makes watching pool more exciting. Also Winner breaks is making unique aspect to pool. Why try make watching it more boring? Should we try emphasize that what makes pool different? It is not Tennis u know?

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Careful with that talk in this thread! You have no idea what you prefer! Your bias is preventing you from liking what you should.

easy-e said:

Careful with that talk in this thread! You have no idea what you prefer! Your bias is preventing you from liking what you should.

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It's like the old guy that still uses a typewriter and thinks the typewriter is better than a computer/word processor even though the computer/word processor is significantly better and has all the advantages. And he does like it better, but only because that is what he is used to. His bias may not allow him to see that though--he probably thinks the typewriter is "better".

There is a 99 out of a 100 chance that he would end up preferring a computer/word processor if he switched over to using it exclusively and spent enough time with it to get used to it and appreciate all the benefits for a while though, and there is a 100 out of 100 chance he would prefer it if that is what he had started with and wasn't having to overcome being so stuck on and used to his typewriter. You'll probably never be able to convince him though.

Poolplaya9 said:

It's like the old guy that still uses a typewriter and thinks the typewriter is better than a computer/word processor even though the computer/word processor is significantly better and has all the advantages. And he does like it better, but only because that is what he is used to. His bias may not allow him to see that though--he probably thinks the typewriter is "better".

There is a 99 out of a 100 chance that he would end up preferring a computer/word processor if he switched over to using it exclusively and spent enough time with it to get used to it and appreciate all the benefits for a while though, and there is a 100 out of 100 chance he would prefer it if that is what he had started with and wasn't having to overcome being so stuck on and used to his typewriter. You'll probably never be able to convince him though.

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Did you see the comparison I did between US open and World 9 Ball?

Obviously it's a small sample size, but alternate break is certainly not 99% better as you seem to suggest with your analogy.

BeiberLvr said:

Did you see the comparison I did between US open and World 9 Ball?

Obviously it's a small sample size, but alternate break is certainly not 99% better as you seem to suggest with your analogy.

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I saw it. It showed alternate breaks with the advantage in every category. As you said it was a small sample size though, and it also compared two different fields that could have differed in how strong and how deep they were. It would be interesting to see a large sample size with ideally the same group of players.

There are also a lot more advantages to alternate breaks than just those that you mentioned.

Nowhere did I suggest that alternate breaks was 99% better than winner breaks. Not even sure how somebody could possibly get that insinuation from what I wrote. You may want to read it again.

For the record I like winner breaks, both playing and watching. Alternate breaks has lots of advantages and benefits over winner breaks though, and winner breaks has no advantages and benefits over alternate breaks. Alternate is just a vastly superior system which is why every other sport in the world employs a form of it.

Poolplaya9 said:

Nowhere did I suggest that alternate breaks was 99% better than winner breaks. Not even sure how somebody could possibly get that insinuation from what I wrote. You may want to read it again.

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It was subtly implied in your typewriter/computer analogy. No biggie if you don't think so. It doesn't need to be pushed any further.

Poolplaya9 said:

I saw it. It showed alternate breaks with the advantage in every category.

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Sure, but the advantages are so minuscule I fail to see how you can say alternate break is "vastly superior" Perhaps our definitions of the word, "vastly" are vastly different.

Poolplaya9 said:

For the record I like winner breaks, both playing and watching. Alternate breaks has lots of advantages and benefits over winner breaks though, and winner breaks has no advantages and benefits over alternate breaks.

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The majority prefers winner break. Isn't that an advantage? If you were going to run a major tournament and charge for admission and streaming. Wouldn't it be in your best interest to use a format that the majority would pay to watch?

BeiberLvr said:

It was subtly implied in your typewriter/computer analogy. No biggie if you don't think so. It doesn't need to be pushed any further.




Sure, but the advantages are so minuscule I fail to see how you can say alternate break is "vastly superior" Perhaps our definitions of the word, "vastly" are vastly different.




The majority prefers winner break. Isn't that an advantage? If you were going to run a major tournament and charge for admission and streaming. Wouldn't it be in your best interest to use a format that the majority would pay to watch?

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Keep trying You're bias will never match his "logic".

BeiberLvr said:

It was subtly implied in your typewriter/computer analogy. No biggie if you don't think so. It doesn't need to be pushed any further.

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Not sure how anyone can think that even in their wildest imagination and after a long night of drinking. Seriously, read it again, closely.

BeiberLvr said:

Sure, but the advantages are so minuscule I fail to see how you can say alternate break is "vastly superior" Perhaps our definitions of the word, "vastly" are vastly different.

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Lot of small advantages make for vastly superior. Some of the advantages are large though.

BeiberLvr said:

The majority prefers winner break. Isn't that an advantage? If you were going to run a major tournament and charge for admission and streaming. Wouldn't it be in your best interest to use a format that the majority would pay to watch?

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Lots of people still like typewriters. Should manufacturers still cater to them? The answer to your question in regards to typewriters or pool all depends on what you are trying to accomplish and who you are tying to benefit.

I'm still waiting for someone that thinks that scorer retaining possession is a superior format to give a logical explanation as to why they don't want football or one of their other favorite sports to switch over to it if it is superior.

Poolplaya9 said:

Lot of small advantages make for vastly superior.

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Only in your wildest imagination.

Poolplaya9 said:

I'm still waiting for someone that thinks that scorer retaining possession is a superior format to give a logical explanation as to why they don't want football or one of their other favorite sports to switch over to it if it is superior.

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I'm still waiting for you to provide actual data that alternate break is "vastly superior"

Cardigan Kid said:

What you do not realize is that pool is a stationary sport and one that should be compared to other stationary sports. A stationary sports is much different than reactionary sports in that you aren't reacting to something the other side does. So really pool should only be compared to other stationary sports, like golf.

In golf, you really don't play your opponent, you play the course and in the end you compare scores.

Pool in it's purest form 14.1 and then 9 ball, historically, you aren't playing your opponent, you are playing the table.

If a golfer makes a hole in one, or an eagle, serious golf fans will toss accolades and wait to see what he does on the next hole. Can he keep his marvelous play going? He has momentum leading into the final round. Etc etc all ways golf can be engaging to the viewer.

This is how I watch winner's break 9 ball and how I believe it is, at this moment in time, a very pure way to showcase pool, where the player plays the table, and if he plays well enough, he can keep hold of the table for as long as he can.

What Shaw and Shane were doing on Sunday was so good, only a handful of players in the world can reach that level in competition. They were playing what the table gave them off their stellar breaks, and the anticipation in seeing if they could go from rack to rack and take it to the finish was not just anticipating them defeating each other, but the possibility of them defeating the table in the game of pool.

We all know this game is infinitely impossible to master in every way shape and form. Even the best players in the world get defeated by the different variables this game will throw at them. But to stand under the lights, live stream, and audience eyes and win against the table if only for 4 or 5 racks in a row, is such an amazing display of talent to play, it should be honored and commended...not rule changed out of existence.

When I talked to Shaw after his loss to Shane, you could see it in his eyes, that this is the game he plays and when an opponent reaches that level as Shane did, there's nothing he could do. And he accepted it, because that is pool.

I have accepted the fact that the world as a whole is changing in regards to pool. Rules will be modified and games will be changed to make things more like other sports. However, like 14.1, winner's break 9 ball, is a pure form of pocket billiards and I will enjoy it the most of all.

Because every one of us who pick up a cue, from Shane and Shaw, to even you reading this...we are all Icarus, with wings made of feathers and wax on the break. There are moments when we can sore high and far but eventually, we will get close to the sun, the wax will melt and we will fall back to earth. Humans cannot defeat the table forever. But, boy is it sure fun to watch the very best give it a try.

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I like your post. Now standby for some analogy about typewriters or lobster.

BeiberLvr said:

I'm still waiting for you to provide actual data that alternate break is "vastly superior"

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Nice try at avoiding the question—but I don’t blame you since you don’t want to have to admit you’re your reason is "because that is what I am used to". I will ask again though. If seeing packages due to the scorer retaining offensive possession is such a great thing, and packages is the reason that you and everyone else always gives for being so stuck on that format, then why wouldn't you want to see these glorious packages due to the scorer retaining possession in any other sport in the world? I mean out of the hundreds of sports out there, why isn't there even one where you (or anyone else) wants to see these magnificent packages? The answer is because there are too many negatives that come with it and pool is the only one that was dumb enough to do it for any length of time, and therefore it is the only one where it became “tradition” that you got used to, and since it is the only sport where you are used to it, it is also the only sport where you want it since your reason for wanting it is simply because you are used to it and it is "tradition".

If being used to it wasn’t your real reason for wanting packages, then surely you would want to see those glorious packages in some other sport somewhere since packages are so, well, glorious. So tell me again which other sports you want to see switch to the "scorer retains offensive possession" format so you can see these glorious packages? That's right, didn't think so.

I have already answered your question but I will do it again. Any format where you can lose without even competing is dumb when you give it some honest thought. The whole reason for competition is for two people to compete to see who is better. With that in mind, you can see how stupid it is to have a format that in some cases doesn't even allow one of the sides to compete. The fact that this doesn't happen often does little to mitigate the silliness. The fact that it allows it at all makes it dumb. With just this reason alone alternate breaks is vastly superior because it always allows both parties an equal chance to compete.

Alternate breaks more accurately determines the better player, and this is even more true with shorter races such as those used in tournaments. Who shouldn't be in favor of more accuracy in finding out who is better--the whole reason for competition to begin with?

Alternate breaks puts more pressure on both players more of the time. Most of us agree that more pressure is a good thing because it further helps the separate who is better than who, and it also makes for much more exciting matches.

Alternate breaks makes for many more tight matches and therefore it makes for a much higher percentage of exciting matches. You still get to see the big comebacks in alternate breaks too so you don't even lose that. Lots more exciting matches all the way around.

The only complaint people ever seem to have about alternate breaks is that you don't get to see packages (you know, they same packages they don't care about with any other sport in the world though). They aren't even correct about this though as you do still get to see packages with alternate breaks. If somebody breaks and runs 5 in a row on their breaks, or whatever the number, it is still 5 in a row break and runs, and is still a package that was not interrupted by a dry or foul break, or failing to get out after their break, etc. Packages still exist in alternate breaks just the same as in winner breaks.

Alternate breaks is more exciting, more pressure, more accurately determines the better player, and always lets both sides compete in a competition (and still allows for big comebacks and the same packages). Any one of those reasons alone is a vast improvement, and taken all together they certainly are.

Poolplaya9 said:

I have already answered your question but I will do it again. Any format where you can lose without even competing is dumb when you give it some honest thought.

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Because that happens all the time, right?

You have yet to provide any data on why alternate break is vastly superior.

Until you can back up your so called "logic" with facts, we're done here.


Have a nice day.

Cardigan Kid said:

What you do not realize is that pool is a stationary sport and one that should be compared to other stationary sports.

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Even if this were true, which it isn't, explain how that would make any difference as to whether or not it makes sense to have a format that may not even allow one side to compete, or what it has to do with whether packages are so phenomenal or not? Some sports or games wear jerseys and some don't but this doesn't have anything do with those things either. Picking out a difference doesn't mean that it is something that makes a difference.

Cardigan Kid said:

A stationary sports is much different than reactionary sports in that you aren't reacting to something the other side does.

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You clearly didn't think this one through very well. As soon as you miss or play safe, your opponent is reacting to your play. Pool absolutely has a reactionary element as players go back and forth reacting to each others shots and is nothing like golf.

Cardigan Kid said:

So really pool should only be compared to other stationary sports, like golf.

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A better example off the top of my head would be chess. Both players are reacting back and forth to the others leaves, but they are never making moves at the same time. Guess what, like every other sport or game in the world chess alternates which opponent gets the opening move in every game in all tournaments because starting with offensive possession is an unfair advantage and that advantage has to be spread between both players.

Or we could go to an even better example right here in our same sport--one pocket. Why doesn't the player who wins the game to score get to retain offensive possessive and break next game so we get to see these glorious packages? Same reason that it doesn't make sense to do it in 9 ball or 10 ball either, and same reason no other sport in the world does it.

Cardigan Kid said:

Humans cannot defeat the table forever. But, boy is it sure fun to watch the very best give it a try.

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And a football team couldn't go on an unlimited run forever either if they received the kickoff every time they scored but it sure would be fun to watch the very best give it a try right? Why don't we hear you, or anybody else, say this about any other sport in the world? Because you know it is a silly format with a lot of drawbacks and you only say it with pool because it is the tradition you are used to, not because it is better.

BeiberLvr said:

Because that happens all the time, right?

You have yet to provide any data on why alternate break is vastly superior.

Until you can back up your so called "logic" with facts, we're done here.


Have a nice day.

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The fact that it can happen at all makes it stupid, which is one of the reasons that no other sport or game in the world uses the format. And although not getting to compete at all is not real common, not getting to compete nearly the same amount as your opponent is the norm. Again, one of the reasons no other sport or game in the world uses that format because the whole idea of competition is for two people to get an equal opportunity to compete and see who is better.

I provided lots of facts. Still waiting on you to provide some that support your position though. So far the only ones you have provided support that alternate breaks is better.

I am also still waiting for you to answer the question I have asked several times, which why you don't want to see "score retains possession" in ANY other sport so you get to see these glorious packages that are apparently so great in your mind (and that just so happen to still exist in alternate breaks btw). I know why you keep avoiding the question, but it sure is awful disingenuous of you none the less.

Cardigan Kid said:

I got the stationary/reactionary sport analogy from Allison Fisher. She uses it in her teaching. But what does she know?
Allison Fisher describes it as a stationary sport, but Poolplaya9 on AZ says that's wrong .

You failed to even absorb my last post. Even when your opponent plays safe, you are still playing the table. That is what you were left, and you are not reacting at anything. You take your time, analyze, and solve the riddle that was left you.

Chess is not a sport (it's a board game that a computer with no hands can play)....But so far you have used chess and football (two very far ends of a competition spectrum) to justify your logic here...And neither of them apply.

Can you list off stationary sports? Pool, golf, darts, etc....

You do not play your opponent directly in a back and forth, you play the table.
Please re-read my last post, and try to absorb it.
If Jayson Shaw didn't have a complaint at Shane running out to victory, how can you tell him what he prefers?

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I think it is about time we ignore him.

Poolplaya9 is like Rain Man and just likes to hear himself babble.

He can't understand about somebody "playing the table", so he obviously is stuck on comparing it to every other sports on the planet, when it is obviously its own game.

I have a feeling he is more of a "watcher" than a real player. If he ever had a "package", he'd maybe understand a little better.

If you haven't noticed, every post of his is about 10 times as long as any response. He thinks he is smart and he's hoping we think he is, too...but I'm not buying it. Just because you like to "babble" a lot doesn't mean you are smart or know what the hell you are talking about.