Looking for an image of the magnified surface of a pool ball

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
well now that seems to be a point of controversy .. is the surface of the ocean = to the surface of the earth? if not... why not?
The size of tidal bulges caused by movement of the oceans is maybe 50 feet maximum, a tiny amount in comparison with the polar vs. equatorial diameter difference of 26 miles. It doesn't affect the comparison of Earth with a billiard ball to any meaningful degree.

I only mentioned the tidal movement of the Earth's crust (less than an inch) because you brought it up.

pj
chgo
 
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I have a bunch of images created with a scanning white light interferometer. I've been saving them for a future BD article; but since you've asked, I've posted a couple here:


Check them out,
Dave

Thanks for the link. Excited to see more pics. I don't know anything about a scanning white light interferometer, but curious how detailed you could get. Could you zoom in even further? I would love to see the edges of two frozen or near frozen balls at an extreme magnification in order to see how the pits and grooves match up.

The photos you posted: Is the ball brand new? What variety -- modern phenolic, I imagine? I'm a little surprised at how random the nicks and scratches are... it makes me wonder if the math to calculate collision-induced throw and transference of english can ever be absolutely precise, or if it ultimately comes down to chance.

If you had the chance to do it, I think it'd be neat and informative to see the differences in the surfaces of ivory, clay, low end phenolic and high end phenolic balls. And brand new vs. some play. And clean and dirty.

Thanks again for the pics.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the link. Excited to see more pics. I don't know anything about a scanning white light interferometer, but curious how detailed you could get. Could you zoom in even further?
I did some higher-magnification images, but they weren't as interesting and didn't come out as well.

I would love to see the edges of two frozen or near frozen balls at an extreme magnification
Unfortunately, that would not work very well. Sorry.

The photos you posted: Is the ball brand new?
Yes.

What variety -- modern phenolic, I imagine?
It was an Aramith Pro Cup ("red measles") cue ball.

I'm a little surprised at how random the nicks and scratches are...
I wasn't surprised because pool balls are polished at the end of the manufacturing process. Polishing is an abrasive process, creating scratches ... even for smooth surfaces (albeit less deep scratches for shinier surfaces).

it makes me wonder if the math to calculate collision-induced throw and transference of english can ever be absolutely precise, or if it ultimately comes down to chance.
I don't think the scale of the scratches and blemishes is significant enough to affect throw very much unless the ball surface is damaged (e.g., scuffed, pitted, cracked, etc.) from long-term and/or abusive use.

If you had the chance to do it, I think it'd be neat and informative to see the differences in the surfaces of ivory, clay, low end phenolic and high end phenolic balls. And brand new vs. some play. And clean and dirty.
I have imaged a large variety of ball conditions, but you will need to wait for my BD article to see and read about them. I'll try to remember to post a link in this thread when the article is available. I probably won't write it for several months, after I finish up my current series of articles.

Thanks again for the pics.
You're very welcome.

For people who don't like clicking on links, here are the photos from the resource page:

magnified_ball_surface_50.jpg


magnified_ball_surface_contours_50.jpg

For additional info, see the magnified ball surface resource page.

Regards,
Dave
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... I've heard that the magnified surface of a cue ball is rougher than the Earths' surface.

Maybe Dr. Dave has a picture of one.
So from Dr. Dave's picture we see a difference in heights of 1 micron (peak to valley) for spots that are within 1000 microns (1mm) of each other. Since the radius of a pool ball is about 28560 microns, the "local" roughness observed is about 1/30000 or about roughly 30 parts per million.

For a similar ratio on the surface of the Earth, consider the extreme of Mt. Whitney to Death Valley, which are pretty close to each other and differ in elevation by about three miles. Since the radius of the Earth is about 4000 miles, the "local" roughness of the Earth is about 1/1400 or 700 parts per million.

Measurements in Louisiana will give a different roughness. Driskill Mountain is 535 feet (or 0.1 mile, close enough) and the highest point in the state. 0.1/4000 is 1/40000 or slightly smoother than the polished ball Dr. Dave showed. If you look just at the oceans, the roughness is around 150 feet in the worst swells, but that would be quite a bit smoother than the polished pool ball.

Gouged pool balls -- from having been knocked onto the floor or against the wall -- might have pits 100 microns deep. Those would be rougher than California by a factor of 5 or so.

In my experience, Aramith balls out of the box are within 0.001 inch of the correct size and are rounder than that. That means that the non-roundness of a ball is less than 0.001/1.125 or 0.1% or about 100PPM. The Earth is about 3300PPM out of round according to the above postings.

Bottom line: New, polished pool balls are much rounder than the Earth and somewhat smoother than the "geologically interesting" areas of the Earth. Old, worn pool balls are still much rounder than the Earth but depending on damage may be rougher than the roughest spots on the surface of the Earth.
 
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I did some higher-magnification images, but they weren't as interesting and didn't come out as well.

Unfortunately, that would not work very well. Sorry.

Yes.

It was an Aramith Pro Cup ("red measles") cue ball.

I wasn't surprised because pool balls are polished at the end of the manufacturing process. Polishing is an abrasive process, creating scratches ... even for smooth surfaces (albeit less deep scratches for shinier surfaces).

I don't think the scale of the scratches and blemishes is significant enough to affect throw very much unless the ball surface is damaged (e.g., scuffed, pitted, cracked, etc.) from long-term and/or abusive use.

I have imaged a large variety of ball conditions, but you will need to wait for my BD article to see and read about them. I'll try to remember to post a link in this thread when the article is available. I probably won't write it for several months, after I finish up my current series of articles.

You're very welcome.

For people who don't like clicking on links, here are the photos from the resource page:

magnified_ball_surface_50.jpg


magnified_ball_surface_contours_50.jpg

For additional info, see the magnified ball surface resource page.

Regards,
Dave

I think I'm still struggling with understanding some of this. I always imagined that the surface of the ball was something along the lines of the super magnified semiconductor ceramic picture softshot posted. Fairly uniform highs and lows, but probably a lot more drastic than those highs and lows. And that those peaks and craters during friction were what caused throw and spin transfer between balls on collision.

But if the polishing process leaves these random scratches in the ball surface (which I imagine would be enormous craters if viewed at a magnification like the semiconductor ceramic picture), wouldn't the effect of these scratches coming into contact with each other have the greater effect than the smaller bumps and pits? In other words, are the random scratches that occur during the polishing process actually the reason for throw and spin transfer? If so, do the random scratches occur uniformly enough so that math estimations for the effects of these collisions can remain pretty precise?

Thanks again for all the information. I've played pool most of my life, but have only recently tried to understand the minute physics involved, and am still pretty ignorant.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
So from Dr. Dave's picture we see a difference in heights of 1 micron (peak to valley) for spots that are within 1000 microns (1mm) of each other. Since the radius of a pool ball is about 28560 microns, the "local" roughness observed is about 1/30000 or about roughly 30 parts per million.

For a similar ratio on the surface of the Earth, consider the extreme of Mt. Whitney to Death Valley, which are pretty close to each other and differ in elevation by about three miles. Since the radius of the Earth is about 4000 miles, the "local" roughness of the Earth is about 1/1400 or 700 parts per million.

Measurements in Louisiana will give a different roughness. Driskill Mountain is 535 feet (or 0.1 mile, close enough) and the highest point in the state. 0.1/4000 is 1/40000 or slightly smoother than the polished ball Dr. Dave showed. If you look just at the oceans, the roughness is around 150 feet in the worst swells, but that would be quite a bit smoother than the polished pool ball.

Gouged pool balls -- from having been knocked onto the floor or against the wall -- might have pits 100 microns deep. Those would be rougher than California by a factor of 5 or so.

In my experience, Aramith balls out of the box are within 0.001 inch of the correct size and are rounder than that. That means that the non-roundness of a ball is less than 0.001/1.125 or 0.1% or about 100PPM. The Earth is about 3300PPM out of round according to the above postings.

Bottom line: New, polished pool balls are much rounder than the Earth and somewhat smoother than the "geologically interesting" areas of the Earth. Old, worn pool balls are still much rounder than the Earth but depending on damage may be rougher than the roughest spots on the surface of the Earth.
Excellent post Bob (as usual)!

I was going to include some analyses like this in my future article, but you've given me some additional ideas. Thanks!

Catch you later,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think I'm still struggling with understanding some of this. I always imagined that the surface of the ball was something along the lines of the super magnified semiconductor ceramic picture softshot posted. Fairly uniform highs and lows, but probably a lot more drastic than those highs and lows.
Sorry, but the pictures tell a different story.

And that those peaks and craters during friction were what caused throw and spin transfer between balls on collision.
Throw and spin transfer are caused by friction (static and/or sliding) between the balls. If the balls were manufactured with a rougher surface (i.e., higher peaks and valleys), there would be more friction and therefore more throw and spin transfer in some cases (but not all). Luckily, most pool balls have very similar and uniform surface properties so the frictional properties don't vary much (unless conditions are clingy due to old, beat up, chalk-smudged, and/or dirty balls).

But if the polishing process leaves these random scratches in the ball surface (which I imagine would be enormous craters if viewed at a magnification like the semiconductor ceramic picture), wouldn't the effect of these scratches coming into contact with each other have the greater effect than the smaller bumps and pits? In other words, are the random scratches that occur during the polishing process actually the reason for throw and spin transfer? If so, do the random scratches occur uniformly enough so that math estimations for the effects of these collisions can remain pretty precise?
As Bob has pointed out, the scratches are tiny. Undamaged and clean balls should react very uniformly at different contact points. This fact is clear from experiments people have performed (e.g., with throw).

Thanks again for all the information. I've played pool most of my life, but have only recently tried to understand the minute physics involved, and am still pretty ignorant.
I love pool even without all of the physics stuff; but with the physics stuff, I love it even more.

Regards,
Dave
 
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