south africa has to many elephants
Ivory ban
- Thread starter oneshotwiss
- Start date
You make some very good points.
I'm all for the banning of ivory but I also think old world ivory should be grandfathered. I also think the elephant is already on the brink of extinction. It saddens me but I don't have a time machine. I myself don't play with a ivory cue. I also think the demand in China well never go away. They are the most people. Poaching well continue and burning ivory IMO is not the fix.
The lack of adult elephants due to poaching. See below.
PILANESBERG, South Africa — Some teenagers are raising hell in the untamed bush here, tormenting the wild animals and giving tourists a terrible fright.
Such rowdiness may sound typical for adolescents, except these delinquents are running amok in one of South Africa's most popular game reserves. They have killed rhinos. They have charged cars of safari-goers. And to make matters worse, they are elephant-sized--well, to be precise, they are elephants.
"There appears to be a discipline problem among the young elephant bulls," said Douw Grobler, veterinarian at Kruger National Park, where many of the elephants at Pilanesberg once lived. "There is a missing link in the elephant population at Pilanesberg. There is a need for the presence of adult elephant bulls. They act as the disciplinarians."
Pilanesberg National Park is Africa's biggest experiment in man-made nature, and like most things human, there was a margin of error when it was conceived nearly 30 years ago.
That's right. It's not necessarily illegal to buy and sell it either. I'm not saying the California law is good, or even particularly enforceable...but it's just the beginning. Actually, I think New York has a similar ban. I think even China has recently said they plan on stopping the use of Ivory, and if I remember correctly they might use the most of anyone. What we're currently doing isn't working, so something else has to be done, and seeing some Asian countries step up is a step in the right direction.
Eventually, it will simply become so difficult and expensive that it will disappear except for collectors items and anachronistic oddities. But whatever...you can always count on California to over react and pass some screwy law, but that doesn't change the fact that it's on it's way out as a practical material.
Well, actually the sale is made, according to IRS regulations, on the contract date.
The consummation of the sale is completed only when both parties receive quid pro quo.
It is governed by the terms and conditions set forth in the actual contract which may specify
that delivery is sometime in the future but the date of the contract is superior to arrival of
the goods. It should be the determining factor but the fact of the matter is the Courts will
decide.......read the lawsuit.......it is a logical sound argument that defends the property rights
of US citizens......in due time logic and common sense will prevail and in the meantime, the
elephant population will shrink and nothing good will come of this absurd new CA regulation.
The consummation of the sale is completed only when both parties receive quid pro quo.
It is governed by the terms and conditions set forth in the actual contract which may specify
that delivery is sometime in the future but the date of the contract is superior to arrival of
the goods. It should be the determining factor but the fact of the matter is the Courts will
decide.......read the lawsuit.......it is a logical sound argument that defends the property rights
of US citizens......in due time logic and common sense will prevail and in the meantime, the
elephant population will shrink and nothing good will come of this absurd new CA regulation.
dom_poppa
Banned
Pool expects the world to give it a pass; the world won't.
You've brought this upon yourselves and now the price will be paid.
The audacity that demands ivory to play a game has irreversibly damaged pool's image.
Pool has chained itself to the demise of the elephant and it's demand for ivory persists.
It's not about 'legal' or 'illegal'. It's about the taking of a life to play a game.
The lawyers have been summoned and doomed defenses are being mounted.
Find the best you can because ultimately you'll be making your case before GOD.
Pool is just a game; life is not. Me thinks priorities have been confused.
You've brought this upon yourselves and now the price will be paid.
The audacity that demands ivory to play a game has irreversibly damaged pool's image.
Pool has chained itself to the demise of the elephant and it's demand for ivory persists.
It's not about 'legal' or 'illegal'. It's about the taking of a life to play a game.
The lawyers have been summoned and doomed defenses are being mounted.
Find the best you can because ultimately you'll be making your case before GOD.
Pool is just a game; life is not. Me thinks priorities have been confused.
I usually don't participate in this conversation,but here goes.
I like animals,including elephants.
I don't hunt,but have no real problem with it. It's just not my thing since I'm not in a position to have to kill my own food to eat. Even if I did,I'm smart enough to know better than go messing with an animal that size.
I'm also a fan of ivory in cues,both for structural use like ferrules and joints,as well as inlays.
I see one having nothing to do with the other really,and here's why.
Has ANYONE ever went out and killed an elephant specifically to harvest whatever ivory is there,and used it immediately for that purpose?
My guess is NO,because fresh ivory is from what I understand worthless as far as material in cues and musical instruments.
It's my understanding that if ivory isn't at least 20 years old or more,is unusable.
So in my mind,I wasn't around to participate in the death of an elephant for what is in my cue and on my shafts,I have no idea exactly where it came from,it's age or any of that.
I bought my cue from a reputable dealer in 1990,and believe the materials used were legit.
I accept that and move on.
Just like I have to accept that I can't do anything about the ban,and accept and discover new ferrule materials,etc. Tommy D.
I like animals,including elephants.
I don't hunt,but have no real problem with it. It's just not my thing since I'm not in a position to have to kill my own food to eat. Even if I did,I'm smart enough to know better than go messing with an animal that size.
I'm also a fan of ivory in cues,both for structural use like ferrules and joints,as well as inlays.
I see one having nothing to do with the other really,and here's why.
Has ANYONE ever went out and killed an elephant specifically to harvest whatever ivory is there,and used it immediately for that purpose?
My guess is NO,because fresh ivory is from what I understand worthless as far as material in cues and musical instruments.
It's my understanding that if ivory isn't at least 20 years old or more,is unusable.
So in my mind,I wasn't around to participate in the death of an elephant for what is in my cue and on my shafts,I have no idea exactly where it came from,it's age or any of that.
I bought my cue from a reputable dealer in 1990,and believe the materials used were legit.
I accept that and move on.
Just like I have to accept that I can't do anything about the ban,and accept and discover new ferrule materials,etc. Tommy D.
dom_poppa
Banned
I think it's time to go away from ivory but at the same time I believe you are exaggerating. The pool industry is just a small portion of the market that contributes to the 'deaths of elephants'.
While the pool industry does use ivory but that is a small portion compared to other industries. One ivory piano key can probably make many elaborate pool cues that contain ivory unless you are Ginacue. Anyways, the point is the pool industry does not contribute to that many elephants dying.
At least we can agree its time for this practice to go away from all industries.
In regards to ivories functionality...I don't get it...it's pretty but I had an ebony/ivory cue and the ivory sleeve cracked like many. Since it's a sleeve then it makes me believe it was put on for decorative reasons.
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Sorry but you missed my point. I wasn't trying to go after John. He mentioned cow bone as a replacement in guitars. Others have mentioned the leather tips being used. To some using any animal parts to support a game is reprehensible.
To me a pork shoulder that's been in my smoker for 12 hours is a thing of beauty. My daughter, a vegetarian, is disgusted. I tell her not to preach and to accept that not everyone feels as she does.
When I choose to shoot with a cue with, as far as I know, legal ivory I don't need to be criticized. If the government passes a law making something that I purchased legally suddenly illegal to sell I am going to be upset.
Life is complicated.
So you must be completely vegan then, to avoid unnecessarily taking life? What do you do for a cue tip, leather is obviously out but I'm not aware of a good alternative for a playing tip, do share if you've found one.
Pangit
Banned
There is a HUGE difference between leather falling off of cows/pigs/buffaloes... and Ivory falling off of Elephants for the never ending pleasure of Cueist. One is an endangered species the others aren't. Figure out which is which. Elephant burgers taste good.:boring:
Ivory laws
Blame it on the companies and the people who have been abusing the 1988 Ivory act.
They are the jerks who are ruined it for the rest of us.......
Blame it on the companies and the people who have been abusing the 1988 Ivory act.
They are the jerks who are ruined it for the rest of us.......
I'm not for ivory necessarily, but if you argue that life is life and deserves to protected then you don't get to draw imaginary lines around only certain kinds of life.
Now, the argument that elephants are endangered and deserve a higher level of protection for that reason is another argument separate from the one I was addressing. It has merit.
My point is not that we need to allow ivory, but that arguing that it's immoral to kill an animal to play pool is a poor argument unless you truly follow that principle completely, and that includes leather.
My problem has little to do with either side of this debate and more to do with people trying to act morally superior when the chances that they truly follow the moral code they're preaching is highly unlikely.
Pangit
Banned
Wasting your breath with this crowd.
In the follow up article posted today....
"Critics of the burn worry the destruction of this stockpile will increase the price of ivory in the black market and encourage more poaching.
"That is an ignorant idea," renowned conservationist Richard Leakey told the crowd at the burn ceremony. "We did it before and prices went from $300 down to $5 within three months of that fire."
Two things... A- I don't believe the price of ivory has ever dropped like that, so I think his statement is total bullsh*t. B- I believe the last big burn in the late 80's was prior to China's economic boom, which has helped to create the larger market for the ivory. In a corrupt society where they can claim they will tighten laws, but that just means more palm greasing.
So in the end.. the poachers will be looking to replace these tusks with more tusks... and the story continues...
JV
"Critics of the burn worry the destruction of this stockpile will increase the price of ivory in the black market and encourage more poaching.
"That is an ignorant idea," renowned conservationist Richard Leakey told the crowd at the burn ceremony. "We did it before and prices went from $300 down to $5 within three months of that fire."
Two things... A- I don't believe the price of ivory has ever dropped like that, so I think his statement is total bullsh*t. B- I believe the last big burn in the late 80's was prior to China's economic boom, which has helped to create the larger market for the ivory. In a corrupt society where they can claim they will tighten laws, but that just means more palm greasing.
So in the end.. the poachers will be looking to replace these tusks with more tusks... and the story continues...
JV
Wow. Here's another link with more pics.
http://www.twcc.com/articles/2016/04/30/k/kenya-to-burn-huge-pile-of-ivory-tusks-to-protest-poaching
http://www.twcc.com/articles/2016/04/30/k/kenya-to-burn-huge-pile-of-ivory-tusks-to-protest-poaching
Attachments
Yeah... and then you read this...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36168742?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook
.... and you better get a clue to what is really going to happen.....
JV
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36168742?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook
.... and you better get a clue to what is really going to happen.....
JV