Have to ask this question.

One Pocket John · Jun 29, 2015

I, among others, had the pleasure of watching the Old School vs the Young Guns in person. This was my first time to ever watch champions of this caliber play.

Keep in mind I'm sitting about 12 feet away from these players.
I didn't pay a whole lot attention to their ball pocketing skills. My focus was on their fundamentals, foot placement, grip and stroke. I watched this for hours.

Now for the question. What I observed has to do with their stroking of the cue ball, it was neither a pendulum nor a piston type of stroke.

All of the pro's used this stroke. On practice strokes (above center cue ball) the cue was elevated something like 5 +/-, when the cue tip made contact the cue was level. At no time did I ever see the cue tip go any further than maybe like 4 or 5 inches beyond where the cue ball was after contact. After contact the cue tip either stayed level or rose slightly into the air.

I have a table at home so the next day I began to copy this style of stroke. From my practicing this type of stroke requires a lot less effort is to move the cue ball around the table.

The stroke was like your trying to help the OB go in and the QB to go where you want it to rather than driving them.

So what kind of cue delivery is this.

You can see this for yourself if you go to Utube and search Rodney Morris, Justin Bergman, Johnnie Archer or Sky Woodward.

Scott, Randy, Fran and any others that would care to contribute.

Thanks.

John

randyg · Jul 1, 2015

One Pocket John said:
I, among others, had the pleasure of watching the Old School vs the Young Guns in person. This was my first time to ever watch champions of this caliber play.

Keep in mind I'm sitting about 12 feet away from these players.
I didn't pay a whole lot attention to their ball pocketing skills. My focus was on their fundamentals, foot placement, grip and stroke. I watched this for hours.

Now for the question. What I observed has to do with their stroking of the cue ball, it was neither a pendulum nor a piston type of stroke.

All of the pro's used this stroke. On practice strokes (above center cue ball) the cue was elevated something like 5 +/-, when the cue tip made contact the cue was level. At no time did I ever see the cue tip go any further than maybe like 4 or 5 inches beyond where the cue ball was after contact. After contact the cue tip either stayed level or rose slightly into the air.

I have a table at home so the next day I began to copy this style of stroke. From my practicing this type of stroke requires a lot less effort is to move the cue ball around the table.

The stroke was like your trying to help the OB go in and the QB to go where you want it to rather than driving them.

So what kind of cue delivery is this.

You can see this for yourself if you go to Utube and search Rodney Morris, Justin Bergman, Johnnie Archer or Sky Woodward.

Scott, Randy, Fran and any others that would care to contribute.

Thanks.

John

Looks normal to me.
I think that your cue tip should finish level or pointing down after the stroke.
Any time you finish with your cue tip pointing in the air, you have made a mechanical mistake.

randyg

ps611846 · Jul 1, 2015

One Pocket John said:
I, among others, had the pleasure of watching the Old School vs the Young Guns in person. This was my first time to ever watch champions of this caliber play.

Keep in mind I'm sitting about 12 feet away from these players.
I didn't pay a whole lot attention to their ball pocketing skills. My focus was on their fundamentals, foot placement, grip and stroke. I watched this for hours.

Now for the question. What I observed has to do with their stroking of the cue ball, it was neither a pendulum nor a piston type of stroke.

All of the pro's used this stroke. On practice strokes (above center cue ball) the cue was elevated something like 5 +/-, when the cue tip made contact the cue was level. At no time did I ever see the cue tip go any further than maybe like 4 or 5 inches beyond where the cue ball was after contact. After contact the cue tip either stayed level or rose slightly into the air.

I have a table at home so the next day I began to copy this style of stroke. From my practicing this type of stroke requires a lot less effort is to move the cue ball around the table.

The stroke was like your trying to help the OB go in and the QB to go where you want it to rather than driving them.

So what kind of cue delivery is this.

You can see this for yourself if you go to Utube and search Rodney Morris, Justin Bergman, Johnnie Archer or Sky Woodward.

Scott, Randy, Fran and any others that would care to contribute.

Thanks.

John

I think Mika Immonen is the perfect example of what you describe.

pooltchr · Jul 1, 2015

John Morra has as near to textbook stroke as any pro I've watched.
Steve

FranCrimi · Jul 1, 2015

Hey John, where was the tournament? Was it on new cloth?

One Pocket John · Jul 1, 2015

FranCrimi said:
Hey John, where was the tournament? Was it on new cloth?

It was in St. Charles, MO. Fran, and yes it was on new cloth.

I have found out recently that this type of stroke is called "clearing the cue".
The purpose of the stroke is to allow the QB to work as natural as it can and reduce slide.

As always Fran, I'm all about keeping it natural cause it works.

Thanks

John

One Pocket John · Jul 1, 2015

ps611846 said:
I think Mika Immonen is the perfect example of what you describe.

The type of stroke Mika and other pros are using is very hard to pick up on video.
The only way to really see what they are doing is in person.............then you will see what I'm talking about.

Thanks for posting.

John

One Pocket John · Jul 1, 2015

randyg said:
Looks normal to me.
I think that your cue tip should finish level or pointing down after the stroke.
Any time you finish with your cue tip pointing in the air, you have made a mechanical mistake.

randyg

Thanks Randy.

John

FranCrimi · Jul 1, 2015

One Pocket John said:
It was in St. Charles, MO. Fran, and yes it was on new cloth.

I have found out recently that this type of stroke is called "clearing the cue".
The purpose of the stroke is to allow the QB to work as natural as it can and reduce slide.

As always Fran, I'm all about keeping it natural cause it works.

Thanks

John

Yup. That's what I was thinking. New cloths are known for sliding. I was thinking that it might be a technique to get the cue ball rolling -- also to control the speed better when using topspin on fast conditions.

One Pocket John · Jul 2, 2015

FranCrimi said:
Yup. That's what I was thinking. New cloths are known for sliding. I was thinking that it might be a technique to get the cue ball rolling -- also to control the speed better when using topspin on fast conditions.

In bold, yes Fran this type of stroke allows the cue ball to work as natural as it can and reduce sliding.
My experience in using this type of stroke over the last 2 weeks has really opened my eyes to the interaction between the QB and OB. The hit is different and I can't put it into words. All you try to do is roll the QB and not drive it or slide it :wink:

As always thanks

John

3RAILKICK · Jul 2, 2015

One Pocket John said:
In bold, yes Fran this type of stroke allows the cue ball to work as natural as it can and reduce sliding.
My experience in using this type of stroke over the last 2 weeks has really opened my eyes to the interaction between the QB and OB. The hit is different and I can't put it into words. All you try to do is roll the QB and not drive it or slide it :wink:

As always thanks

John

Is there a slight drop of the cue where gripped, just before cb contact, to create or maintain a level or slightly upward angled strike of the ball?

A slight 'hammering' wrist flex action as they/you come through the ball? Where you can feel the cue's handle creating a slight pressure on the heel pad of your grip hand...kind of like in a very light golf grip?

Is there a sense of a shift in grip pressure, where the ring finger and heel pad carry the final 'weight' of the strike as you just reach the cb at the bottom of the pendulum arc?

Do you get a feeling of 'pushing' the ball instead of 'hitting' the ball?

...trying to verbalize a visualized tactile feeling ..used by someone else...ain't that easy/nor is asking questions about it

..sounds like you are having success with duplicating subtleties you observed and studied....sweet.:thumbup:

One Pocket John · Jul 3, 2015

3RAILKICK said:
Is there a slight drop of the cue where gripped, just before cb contact, to create or maintain a level or slightly upward angled strike of the ball? Yes

A slight 'hammering' wrist flex action as they/you come through the ball? Where you can feel the cue's handle creating a slight pressure on the heel pad of your grip hand...kind of like in a very light golf grip? Yes

Is there a sense of a shift in grip pressure, where the ring finger and heel pad carry the final 'weight' of the strike as you just reach the cb at the bottom of the pendulum arc? Yes

Do you get a feeling of 'pushing' the ball instead of 'hitting' the ball? For me this is a hard call. Like if I had the QB in my hand and rolled it (underhanded) down the table. I'm rolling the ball with my grip hand (mental feel picture)

...trying to verbalize a visualized tactile feeling ..used by someone else...ain't that easy/nor is asking questions about it
Man, you got that right. I don't like writing about feel.

..sounds like you are having success with duplicating subtleties you observed and studied....sweet.:thumbup:

Replies in color.

Thanks for posting.

Happy 4th.

John

Mikjary · Jul 3, 2015

One Pocket John said:
I, among others, had the pleasure of watching the Old School vs the Young Guns in person. This was my first time to ever watch champions of this caliber play.

Keep in mind I'm sitting about 12 feet away from these players.
I didn't pay a whole lot attention to their ball pocketing skills. My focus was on their fundamentals, foot placement, grip and stroke. I watched this for hours.

Now for the question. What I observed has to do with their stroking of the cue ball, it was neither a pendulum nor a piston type of stroke.

All of the pro's used this stroke. On practice strokes (above center cue ball) the cue was elevated something like 5 +/-, when the cue tip made contact the cue was level. At no time did I ever see the cue tip go any further than maybe like 4 or 5 inches beyond where the cue ball was after contact. After contact the cue tip either stayed level or rose slightly into the air.

I have a table at home so the next day I began to copy this style of stroke. From my practicing this type of stroke requires a lot less effort is to move the cue ball around the table.

The stroke was like your trying to help the OB go in and the QB to go where you want it to rather than driving them.

So what kind of cue delivery is this.

You can see this for yourself if you go to Utube and search Rodney Morris, Justin Bergman, Johnnie Archer or Sky Woodward.

Scott, Randy, Fran and any others that would care to contribute.

Thanks.

John

I've been working with variations on this type of stroke for the last several months. A few attempts with threads seem doomed in the main forum. Maybe SmoothStroke can weigh in here and get a conversation going with his experience on the subject.

Bill (3RAILKICK) appears to be describing a lot of what the stroke feels like when it happens. I've found it gives me good speed control when rolling the cue ball and short, quick follow in tight spaces.

Best,
Mike

3RAILKICK · Jul 3, 2015

One Pocket John said:
Replies in color.

Thanks for posting.

Happy 4th.

John

Hey John...

thanks for responding so clearly and quickly...I like your 'underhand roll' feeling imagery ...while hitting above center....that helps.

I feel ya, man.....

Hey Mike...nice to hear from you...I like how you keep changing things up, experimenting and such....that tool box still got room for new items, eh? ...kind of like when the Snap-On truck pulls up..gonna find something we gotta have.

take care gentlemen

ps: this, 'down to go up' stroke, IMHO is maybe what SVB is incorporating into his pop up break stroke. I think his ball shallowly hops on the way to the rack from this type of action, vs a mini jump shot from a slight down attack angle....probably wrong again

Happy 4 back at you(s)//I'll stay home and enjoy the fireworks, gunfire and comfort the dogs

One Pocket John · Jul 3, 2015

3RAILKICK said:
Hey John...

thanks for responding so clearly and quickly...I like your 'underhand roll' feeling imagery ...while hitting above center....that helps.

I feel ya, man.....

Hey Mike...nice to hear from you...I like how you keep changing things up, experimenting and such....that tool box still got room for new items, eh? ...kind of like when the Snap-On truck pulls up..gonna find something we gotta have.

take care gentlemen

ps: this, 'down to go up' stroke, IMHO is maybe what SVB is incorporating into his pop up break stroke. I think his ball shallowly hops on the way to the rack from this type of action, vs a mini jump shot from a slight down attack angle....probably wrong again

Happy 4 back at you(s)//I'll stay home and enjoy the fireworks, gunfire and comfort the dogs

Ya just had to add "the snap on truck" been there.

John

3RAILKICK · Jul 3, 2015

Mikjary said:
I've been working with variations on this type of stroke for the last several months. A few attempts with threads seem doomed in the main forum. Maybe SmoothStroke can weigh in here and get a conversation going with his experience on the subject.

Bill (3RAILKICK) appears to be describing a lot of what the stroke feels like when it happens. I've found it gives me good speed control when rolling the cue ball and short, quick follow in tight spaces.

Best,
Mike

Hey Mike...yeah...can work well for those close quarter 'stun-thrus' too.

take care

3RAILKICK · Jul 3, 2015

One Pocket John said:
Ya just had to add "the snap on truck" been there.

John

Literally, don't get me started..lol

It's a luv-hate thing.:wink:

One Pocket John · Jul 3, 2015

Mikjary said:
I've been working with variations on this type of stroke for the last several months. A few attempts with threads seem doomed in the main forum. Maybe SmoothStroke can weigh in here and get a conversation going with his experience on the subject.

Bill (3RAILKICK) appears to be describing a lot of what the stroke feels like when it happens. I've found it gives me good speed control when rolling the cue ball and short, quick follow in tight spaces.

Best,
Mike

Hey Mike thanks for posting.
When I had the opportunity to watch Rodney Morris, Johnnie Archer, Justin Bergman and Sky Woodward play in person I jumped on that one.

These four players were all using the same cue action. My thought, at the time was, what in the heck are they doing.

So for the last two weeks I've been home trying to execute the same stroke. Its coming along real well.

I have had to make some mental changes on cue action and feel.

You may want to "swipe" up on the QB to get the feeling that your rolling the cue ball and not sliding the cue ball when using above center cue ball.

When you start feeling good with what you are doing you should notice that the cue ball and object ball are acting differently when struck.
It will feel like you helped the OB go where you wanted it to go. The feeling is not a driving action. Its a rolling action.

In your mind you just have to say to yourself, "I'm not driving or sliding the QB anymore, I want the QB to roll"

Don't look for SS to appear. He has stated to me that all he ever wanted to do was help folks but he kept getting beat up by some. Sad.

Have fun Mike and Happy 4th.

John

Mikjary · Jul 3, 2015

3RAILKICK said:
Hey Mike...yeah...can work well for those close quarter 'stun-thrus' too.

take care

Hey Bill,

The Snap-On truck is like XMAS on wheels. :smile: You ALWAYS need something!

A few years ago, Gerry Kanov told me to watch what the Pinoys (Efren) were doing. He noticed several patterns in Efren and Busty's PSRs that helped to set up the low cue ball address and finish you're talking about. It creates a different "angle of attack" and stroking more through the cue ball than up and off of it for follow strokes.

I tried to relay this info, but the upstroke part got people saying you can't hit a cue ball like that and get the action Efren and Shane get.

End of discussion...hello flamers.

Best,
Mike

Mikjary · Jul 3, 2015

One Pocket John said:
Hey Mike thanks for posting.
When I had the opportunity to watch Rodney Morris, Johnnie Archer, Justin Bergman and Sky Woodward play in person I jumped on that one.

These four players were all using the same cue action. My thought, at the time was, what in the heck are they doing.

So for the last two weeks I've been home trying to execute the same stroke. Its coming along real well.

I have had to make some mental changes on cue action and feel.

You may want to "swipe" up on the QB to get the feeling that your rolling the cue ball and not sliding the cue ball when using above center cue ball.

When you start feeling good with what you are doing you should notice that the cue ball and object ball are acting differently when struck.
It will feel like you helped the OB go where you wanted it to go. The feeling is not a driving action. Its a rolling action.

In your mind you just have to say to yourself, "I'm not driving or sliding the QB anymore, I want the QB to roll"

Don't look for SS to appear. He has stated to me that all he ever wanted to do was help folks but he kept getting beat up by some. Sad.

Have fun Mike and Happy 4th.

John

John,

Your post is exactly the point I tried to make in some of my previous posts. You limit the cue ball hop and slide that most strokes create. This helps with cling and throw in close quarters and can allow a player to shoot softer for better speed control.

The stroke gets a bad rap when people read about a swipe up on the cue ball, which is not the case. I get the feel of a sustained contact or solid stroke through the cue ball when using it. Thanks to you and Bill for describing it so well! Happy 4th!

Best,
Mike

Have to ask this question.

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