Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Instruction & Ask the pros > Ask The Instructor
Reload this Page Question About Deliberate Practice for Experienced Instructors
Reply
Page 4 of 4 « First 234
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old
  (#46)
boyersj
8 Ball NTC - 3rd place!
boyersj has a reputation beyond reputeboyersj has a reputation beyond reputeboyersj has a reputation beyond reputeboyersj has a reputation beyond reputeboyersj has a reputation beyond reputeboyersj has a reputation beyond reputeboyersj has a reputation beyond reputeboyersj has a reputation beyond reputeboyersj has a reputation beyond reputeboyersj has a reputation beyond reputeboyersj has a reputation beyond repute
 
boyersj's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 356
vCash: 500
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Evansville
   
07-14-2017, 07:46 AM

I am going to attempt to use a few examples to clarify the differing opinions of how much time should be spent practicing.
I have read many references to 8 hour practice session so I am going to use that as the base line of my examples.

Example 1: Working on improving lag speed
Take a ball and place it on the same spot using some marking device and do a lag shot. ie. send it to the foot rail and then back to the head cushion
Measure the distance in inches from the head cushion and record onto a piece of paper. Record the time for each test.
Perform that task for 8 hours and then plot your results, Distance from rail vs shot number, starting with 1.

Example 2: Ghost drill evaluation
Rack up 9 ball, and break the balls. Play a race to 5 where you get ball in hand after the break.
Start with removing the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 balls immediately after the break. (This is known as 3 ball ghost, with full rack break). If you win the set, repeat but leave the 6 ball on the table.
Continue this until you can beat the 9 ball ghost (removing no balls after the break) or until you find the Ghost race that is even with your speed.
Continue this for 8 hours, and record your score accounting for the ghost level and the win/lose score.

Example 3: Throw balls out on the table and knock them in, either in rotation or not, this is a personal preference. Don't bother to write down any results because there are no measurable results to record.

So example 1 is a fine motor skills type of drill, that requires quite a bit of focus and im going to be that not many people are capable of performing that drill for 8 hours.
If anyone is able to perform that drill for 8 hours, graph the results of each shot - at two shots per minute that would be 960 shots.
I will additionally challenge that the distance from the head rail will not statistically improve after the 40th shot (20 minutes).

I will spice this example up and for the person who will video themselves and send me the DVD and the paper that they recorded the results with a graph that shows improvement after the 200th shot;
I will send your choice of $100 worth of billiard supplies from Seyberts or comparable vendors.

Example two is not a drill, but is an exercise that is not motor skill specific, but it still has feedback with measurable results.
Because it is not a motor skill drill we can sustain that activity for longer periods of time.
There are two parts to this exercise: first determining our ghost equivalent, and second is repeatedly trying to beat that level.
This is a bit more enjoyable activity but I still challenge the payback of 8 hours of continual effort.
I will offer the same reward to someone who can provide video evidence that they can beat a ghost 2 balls better after 8 hours than the first loss they took.

Example 3 is what many people consider practice, however it has no real motor skill focus (compare to example 1) nor does it have a measurable feedback.
This is considered "play" to an instructor and it is the nemesis of real improvement.
This is addictive part of pool that Fran references, it does improve aiming but for most players pocketing balls is not the challenge.
Putting the cue ball where we want for the next shot over and over is the challenge.
I will digress that this is a great exercise for a low skill level player because if they struggle with making balls, they would get discouraged at example 1 and example 2.

I will say that even example 3 for 8 hours will tend to get monotonous, and when we spend that much time on the table there is some social and or competitive aspects that allow us to stay engaged.

I have given some 8 hour lessons, bear in mind this was not me focusing on myself, but on someone else - and I was exhausted mentally.
They were as well, and that is why most instructors of all motor skills activities encourage their students to do lots of short highly focused sessions instead of long semi focused sessions.

Think about this for a moment... A 3 hour college course typically meets 3 times a week for 15 weeks at 50 minutes per class,
sometimes there are "power hour" classes that meet for 75 minutes twice a week, but this is still 150 minutes a week. thats 2250 minutes or 37.5 hours.
If it was more effective to learn in 8 hour chucks, why wouldn't they have a 3 credit hour class last a 5 day week?

I hope my post is informational and someone finds value in the contents.


____________________
Steve Boyer
PBIA Certified Instructor
Proud member of the SPF Family
http://www.oncuebilliards.net

Last edited by boyersj; 07-14-2017 at 07:50 AM.
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#47)
BC21
Poolology

BC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond repute
 
BC21's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 857
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: West Virginia
   
07-14-2017, 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
Not sure how you'll feel about record scratches in jazz music, but try this one on for size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUcr4t2Atw




Yes, back to the topic. I agree that in certain cases (like yours, age) that perhaps shorter practice sessions can be valuable, but that's only because long sessions aren't really an option. However, that doesn't seem to be what those instructors are putting out there. Instead, it's a one size fits all approach, that everyone would benefit from two 20 minute practice sessions a day.

As BD stated, that's simply not true when you look at real world examples of great pool players.
I would venture a guess that the better instructors, when one-on-one with a student, suggest a more targeted method of practice based on that particular student, rather than a one size fits all style of practice. It is much more productive to set a certain amount of successful shot attempts than to set a time limit. For example....when practicing pattern play, if you know you can consistently run five open balls (better than 8 out of 10 times), tell yourself you're going to have to run six balls at least 3 times in a row before you're finished with the session. It may take 15 minutes or an hour, the click isn't what you are trying to satisfy.


POOLOLOGY
Brian Crist
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#48)
PocketSpeed11
AzB Long Member
PocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond repute
 
PocketSpeed11's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 704
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New Mexico
   
07-15-2017, 01:30 PM

Because of issues of renovation, coincidentally at both of the places I shoot at, I haven't shot in a few days. But here is how I've decided to go about my practice routine: For one month, I will solely devote my time at the table to a well-rounded regimen of drills. At least half of these drills will feature recorded feedback. For the second month I will bookend focused practice play with 20 minutes of drills. I know 20 minutes separated over many hours, including hours of non-play, would be ideal, but it isn't feasible for me at this stage of my life. In a few years, with my own home and own table it will be.

I like how somebody mentioned The Talent Code. I thought that was a great book. I'm currently reading Peak: Secrets From The New Science Of Expertise. It is a slower read, but it was written by psychology professor who essentially spearheaded the focused study of expertise in psychology. Measured feedback is stressed in the book. The author also conducted a study with violinists. The violinists overwhelmingly stated that the labor-intensive practice that wasn't fun was most important to their improvement.

After these two months of practice, I'll assess how I should proceed with my practice. Of course, what might work best for me wouldn't work as well for others. I'll update you guys after a month to how it's going. Thanks for the advice everybody.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#49)
poolnut7879
AzB Bronze Member
poolnut7879 is on a distinguished road
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 45
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Aug 2016
   
07-15-2017, 02:11 PM

Here's a tip from Daniel Coyle, author of The Little Book of Talent. Don't call a drill a drill. Call it a challenge instead. Sounds much more inviting and fun.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#50)
goettlicher
PBIA Master Instructor
goettlicher has a reputation beyond reputegoettlicher has a reputation beyond reputegoettlicher has a reputation beyond reputegoettlicher has a reputation beyond reputegoettlicher has a reputation beyond reputegoettlicher has a reputation beyond reputegoettlicher has a reputation beyond reputegoettlicher has a reputation beyond reputegoettlicher has a reputation beyond reputegoettlicher has a reputation beyond reputegoettlicher has a reputation beyond repute
 
goettlicher's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 120
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2006
   
07-15-2017, 03:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketSpeed11 View Post
Because of issues of renovation, coincidentally at both of the places I shoot at, I haven't shot in a few days. But here is how I've decided to go about my practice routine: For one month, I will solely devote my time at the table to a well-rounded regimen of drills. At least half of these drills will feature recorded feedback. For the second month I will bookend focused practice play with 20 minutes of drills. I know 20 minutes separated over many hours, including hours of non-play, would be ideal, but it isn't feasible for me at this stage of my life. In a few years, with my own home and own table it will be.

I like how somebody mentioned The Talent Code. I thought that was a great book. I'm currently reading Peak: Secrets From The New Science Of Expertise. It is a slower read, but it was written by psychology professor who essentially spearheaded the focused study of expertise in psychology. Measured feedback is stressed in the book. The author also conducted a study with violinists. The violinists overwhelmingly stated that the labor-intensive practice that wasn't fun was most important to their improvement.

After these two months of practice, I'll assess how I should proceed with my practice. Of course, what might work best for me wouldn't work as well for others. I'll update you guys after a month to how it's going. Thanks for the advice everybody.

Don't forget to play in between those practice rounds.

randyg
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#51)
Scott Lee
AzB Silver Member

Scott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 15,228
vCash: 4100
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Now living in Largo FL
   
07-16-2017, 06:09 PM

Jon...What you and Chris and several others just don't get, is that this type of practice is for when you have already developed the "hard skills", as described by Coyle. In order to develop those skills to a point where you can apply them at the table there is a progressive practice regimen that is geared to each students needs. Some will practice that regimen for an hour...some for a couple of hours. This is done in bits and pieces that coordinate and build on each other. The 20 minute routine is for maintaining the requisite skills, once you're able to make them a habit. Nothing is ever "one size fits all" and nothing is cookie cutter. Each student is an individual.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
Yes, back to the topic. I agree that in certain cases (like yours, age) that perhaps shorter practice sessions can be valuable, but that's only because long sessions aren't really an option. However, that doesn't seem to be what those instructors are putting out there. Instead, it's a one size fits all approach, that everyone would benefit from two 20 minute practice sessions a day.

As BD stated, that's simply not true when you look at real world examples of great pool players.


PBIA Master Instructor
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#52)
PocketSpeed11
AzB Long Member
PocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond reputePocketSpeed11 has a reputation beyond repute
 
PocketSpeed11's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 704
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New Mexico
   
08-12-2017, 06:07 PM

It's hard to believe it's almost been a month since I posted. My goal was to have a month of just doing drill after drill with no practice play. I soon realized how less effective a massive rotation of various drills without practice play would be compared to practice play intermixed with a smaller amount of drills each day. I'm sure some of you, and it has already been indicated, were fully aware of this. For instance, I'll conduct a challenging, but not too challenging, safety drill for several minutes and always make sure I end with a good safety. Then I will conduct a rack or two of practice play and go back to that same drill. I might do this like 3 or 4 times with the same drill. It was made obvious that this was far more effective than just doing it once and moving on to another drill for the day. As for my month experiment, it is no longer. I will just continue to practice play intermixed with a smaller number of drills each day as long as I'm playing. The improvements from this small sample size are already evident.
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 4 of 4 « First 234

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.