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Bob Jewett
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10-25-2007, 08:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson
Can you describe what "elasticity" is, how it makes balls bouncier and what that means generally for ball/ball interactions? I've only heard about it in pieces and haven't been able to add it all up.

Thanks,

pj
chgo
Elasticity is how well a ball will transfer its energy to another ball. On a stop shot, we hope for the object ball to leave with 100% of the cue ball's incoming speed. If the balls are inelastic, the object ball will get only part of the cue ball's speed. A result of this, required by the laws of conservation of energy and momentum, is that the cue ball will retain some of its initial velocity, and be going forward slightly after the collision. This action is much more visible with ivory balls which are much less elastic than pool balls.

One way to measure elasticity is to bounce a ball off a very hard, heavy object, like a steel block. (This gives a situation just like two balls running at each other with the same speed, since neither ball will penetrate the point where they collide, just as the ball will not penetrate (significantly) the steel block.) Neglecting air resistance, the bounce height divided by the starting height gives the square of the "coefficient of restitution" of the collision, and gives a ratio of speeds before and after the collision. Wikipedia has several sections on this stuff.

If a cue ball is inelastic, it will follow well and draw poorly even though it is the same mass as the object ball.


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10-25-2007, 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett
Elasticity is how well a ball will transfer its energy to another ball. On a stop shot, we hope for the object ball to leave with 100% of the cue ball's incoming speed. If the balls are inelastic, the object ball will get only part of the cue ball's speed. A result of this, required by the laws of conservation of energy and momentum, is that the cue ball will retain some of its initial velocity, and be going forward slightly after the collision. This action is much more visible with ivory balls which are much less elastic than pool balls.

One way to measure elasticity is to bounce a ball off a very hard, heavy object, like a steel block. (This gives a situation just like two balls running at each other with the same speed, since neither ball will penetrate the point where they collide, just as the ball will not penetrate (significantly) the steel block.) Neglecting air resistance, the bounce height divided by the starting height gives the square of the "coefficient of restitution" of the collision, and gives a ratio of speeds before and after the collision. Wikipedia has several sections on this stuff.

If a cue ball is inelastic, it will follow well and draw poorly even though it is the same mass as the object ball.
In my mind I'm sending you some green things. In reality (an entirely different place) I don't know how or what you'd do with them anyway.

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10-25-2007, 10:13 AM

Danny Diliberto on an accustats video said that he did some testing and the measles ball is lighter.
  
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10-25-2007, 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by belmicah
As I mentionied in this post...the modulus of elasticity is a value that represents the force exerted outward when an object is compressed, therefore giving it "springiness." The higher the force exerted outwardly, the higher the modulus of elasticity, and the higher (or further) it will bounce. It is a ratio of stress/strain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_modulus
It seems to me that a uniform density would throw out this theory...it just sounds retarded. They do use the same material to make all of their cue balls, right?


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10-25-2007, 10:25 AM

The phenolic resins used may have been molded differently, as stated by previous poster, or may just have a different composition.

You're right in that density does have a lot to do with it.

I was simply throwing out facts to support my, and others', theories. I don't really know why balls may roll differently, or how exactly they are made.
  
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10-25-2007, 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by belmicah
The phenolic resins used may have been molded differently, as stated by previous poster, or may just have a different composition.

You're right in that density does have a lot to do with it.

I was simply throwing out facts to support my, and others', theories. I don't really know why balls may roll differently, or how exactly they are made.
I don't know how they're made, either... I'm just saying that if they have any kind of quality control in place (which they must) than it is unlikely.

Honestly, I've always been able to tell the difference between the pro cup and a red dot. I think the pro cup is heavier. I've also always said there is a difference between centenials and aramith pros, too...but everyone tells me they're the same material, made in the same factory, by the same company, etc... I can tell the difference, and I don't need to come up with long complicated theories as to why...it doesn't really matter. I'm interested in knowing why, but just citing something random with no reason to beleive that has anything to do with it just seems kind of nuts.


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Bob Jewett
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10-25-2007, 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson
In my mind I'm sending you some green things. In reality (an entirely different place) I don't know how or what you'd do with them anyway. ...
You must be new here. At the end of the year, Mike Howerton (the webmaster here) sends each "green thing" holder $1000 per green thing as a Christmas bonus.


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10-25-2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by belmicah
As I mentionied in this post...the modulus of elasticity is a value that represents the force exerted outward when an object is compressed, therefore giving it "springiness." The higher the force exerted outwardly, the higher the modulus of elasticity, and the higher (or further) it will bounce. It is a ratio of stress/strain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_modulus
I didn't notice before that this might have been an answer to my question. If so, green things to you in my mind too.

pj
chgo
  
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Aramith Cue Balls - Some History from Tom Simpson
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Aramith Cue Balls - Some History from Tom Simpson - 10-25-2007, 01:31 PM

Here's a 2000 RSB post from Tom Simpson (the Elephant Balls guy) with some interesting info about the Saluc/Aramith cue balls.

Apparently the red circle and blue circle cue balls are made from different resins, which means they could act differently even if the same weight. Nothing here about the measles ball, but it could also be made of a different resin.

The other interesting stuff here is that both kinds were being made by another company before 1981 and were identical then, and that back in those days the manufacturer made lighter "super draw" cue balls for room owners.

pj
chgo

===================================

From: tom simpson <tsimp...@columbus.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Blue Circle vs. Red Circle - the truth is out there
Date: 2000/04/25

[snip another poster's comments]

::You must have spoken with my buddy Bob Simpson (no relation)
:: of Hyatt Ball. I called him today to look into this matter.
::He made the Centennials until 1981, when Saluc "stole the
::contract by taking a big loss on it." He assures me that yes
::indeed, when Hyatt made them, the Blue Circles and the Red
::Circles were identical. The only difference was the Blue
::Circles were held to a tighter tolerance (+/- .001)
.
::
::I suspect that Saluc is not maintaining this similarity.
::Their web site says they are using a different formula for
::the Amariths vs. the Aramith Super Pro's, so it's entirely
:: possible that the material is different.
::
::Here's a tidbit that may clear up some ancient mysteries for
::some of you: Bob told me that he would occasionally get
:: orders for "draw cueballs". He would make batches of
::cueballs up to 10% lighter than normal (with the same
::diameter) and fill these orders. Ten percent! He said they
::were usually bought by room owners.
We speculated that the
::room owners had the idea that players would feel they played
::well and got lots of ball action on Room X's "great
::equipment." The draw cueballs were not marked in any way.
::
::I have an inquiry in to Saluc, and I'll report what I learn
:: (if anything) in this thread. It's pretty silly that we
::don't know this basic fact.
::
:: tom simpson

It took two months and three tries, but today I got a response
from Saluc. Here it is:

Dear Mr. Simpson,

Please find below our comments on your April 25 e-mail.

1. In our top line of American Pool balls 2" 1/4 we are
manufacturing two sets :

a) "SUPER ARAMITH PRO" set (blue box) with a red triangle cue
ball
b) "BRUNSWICK CENTENNIAL" set (Brunswick box) with a blue
circle cue ball

For your information, the above 2 products are exactly the
same : the only difference is their design.

2. The "red circle" cue balls are produced with a different
kind of cast phenolic resin. This is the only difference with
the above 2 cue balls.


Best regards,

SALUC S.A. - Belgium


At least now we know SOMETHING! I replied with more questions
about why the different resin, is the resilience the same, and
so on. I'll report further, if I get anywhere.

It could still be true that the Blue Circles and the Red
Circles are different weights, since they are different
materials, but they didn't specifically address that question.
I'm sure the language barrier is part of the problem.

tom simpson

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 10-25-2007 at 08:54 PM.
  
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10-25-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson
Here's a 2004 RSB post from Tom Simpson (the Elephant Balls guy) with some interesting info about the Saluc/Aramith cue balls.

Apparently the red circle and blue circle cue balls are made from different resins, which means they could act differently even if the same weight. Nothing here about the measles ball, but it could also be made of a different resin.
Nice find! Now I will begin considering this possibility.


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10-28-2007, 02:04 AM

I guess I wasn't very clear in my earlier post, but once again here is my understanding of the differences between cueballs. The red circle is made of the same type of phenolic resin as carom balls, and the blue circle cueball made of the same phenolic resin as the object balls. From what I understand, there are now "measles balls" being made with both types of resins, though the more common one is the aramith super pro which is made with the carom ball resin. The carom ball material is significantly more elastic than the other pheonlic resins used, and can be easily spotted by it's off-white and semi-opaque appearance. There are also cueballs from all sorts of manufacturers made from different materials altogether, like polyester resin for example. Every different material has different elasticity and therefore plays differently. As Bob already stated, more elastic balls will draw better, and less elastic balls will follow better, even if they are the same size, weight, and mass.
  
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11-20-2007, 10:54 AM

/me beats a dead horse

Ok, here is one for ya'll ball experts. Last night I played in a local tourney which was played on 8 foot Gold Crowns with Brunswick Centenial Object balls. My question is about the Cue Balls they were using... The Cue balls where the exact same size as the object balls but were noticeably heavier and had a Blue Marking that looked sort of like a "S." Needless to say it screwed with my shape play quite a bit as I was unable to adapt to it before matches began. Any idea what this mystery ball is?
  
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11-20-2007, 12:00 PM

the "S" stood for "sh*tty"


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11-20-2007, 01:29 PM

it seems that desert has it right. i own 3 different " red circle " balls , 2 are 6 oz ball that do not play the same. 1 is an old 5.5 oz ball from the 70"s i also have 2 centennial blue circle balls (6 oz ) that play the same. all the balls are new except the 70"s red circle. material seems to be a large factor in how they play. the red circle balls are from different companies.
  
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08-06-2012, 03:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varney Cues View Post
A lot of players using thinner shafts often complain about the vibration & noise when using the measle...no issues at all when swapped to a red circle. I do believe that using a measle daily will indeed improve your game.
Why do you believe that?
  
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