This is interesting.

Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
One Pocket John said:
Watch parts #1, #2 and #3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTYg3xtcEOs

Part #1 Freddie the Beard teaches the same thing in his YouTube videos but does not go into so much detail.

Part #2 Interesting. Need to get the feel for this. Makes sense to me.

Comments welcome.

John
Click to expand...

Hmm....I bet a lot of the science guys will object to this...

I have noticed that I do tend to press down on the cue when I draw the ball, and I sometimes use it to prevent a miscue when shooting from the rail. This is obviously psychological:rolleyes:. Especially since it works like a charm. I picked up that pressing down trick from CJ on his grip thread.

Unfortunately since some people are so closed minded, they will never try this and experience it for themeselves. The different grips for various sidespins was new to me and I do tend to shoot my follow shots with a more neutral wrist/hand position so those are some new things to try. I'll give it a spin tomorrow. And give my opinion. I do believe I'm allready doing the draw grip, but not consistently, so there might even be room for improvement there.

Very interesting indeed. Green rep sent.

BTW, maybe there is some sort of trick on the break that's waiting to be discovered? I haven't been as detailed in my analysis on the grip hand on the break. I use some sort of CJ-hammer wrist thing, but maybe there is something better?
 
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JoseV

JoseV

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Straightpool_99 said:
Hmm....I bet a lot of the science guys will object to this...

I have noticed that I do tend to press down on the cue when I draw the ball, and I sometimes use it to prevent a miscue when shooting from the rail. This is obviously psychological:rolleyes:. Especially since it works like a charm. I picked up that pressing down trick from CJ on his grip thread.

Unfortunately since some people are so closed minded, they will never try this and experience it for themeselves. The different grips for various sidespins was new to me and I do tend to shoot my follow shots with a more neutral wrist/hand position so those are some new things to try. I'll give it a spin tomorrow. And give my opinion. I do believe I'm allready doing the draw grip, but not consistently, so there might even be room for improvement there.

Very interesting indeed. Green rep sent.

BTW, maybe there is some sort of trick on the break that's waiting to be discovered? I haven't been as detailed in my analysis on the grip hand on the break. I use some sort of CJ-hammer wrist thing, but maybe there is something better?
Click to expand...
You know on my Break grip, my hand is sitting much higher, closer to the top of the wrap area, to me I feel like I can accelerate faster. I might have a video I can try to post.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
 
N

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Straightpool_99 said:
Hmm....I bet a lot of the science guys will object to this...

I have noticed that I do tend to press down on the cue when I draw the ball, and I sometimes use it to prevent a miscue when shooting from the rail. This is obviously psychological:rolleyes:. Especially since it works like a charm. I picked up that pressing down trick from CJ on his grip thread.

Unfortunately since some people are so closed minded, they will never try this and experience it for themeselves. The different grips for various sidespins was new to me and I do tend to shoot my follow shots with a more neutral wrist/hand position so those are some new things to try. I'll give it a spin tomorrow. And give my opinion. I do believe I'm allready doing the draw grip, but not consistently, so there might even be room for improvement there.

Very interesting indeed. Green rep sent.

BTW, maybe there is some sort of trick on the break that's waiting to be discovered? I haven't been as detailed in my analysis on the grip hand on the break. I use some sort of CJ-hammer wrist thing, but maybe there is something better?
Click to expand...

Yeah, right....the science guys that have the actual science, common sense, logic, ect. behind them are the closed-minded ones.

Here's a big hint for you, if you do things right to start with, you don't then need to go looking for bandaids to fix your mistakes. ;)
 
Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
JoseV said:
You know on my Break grip, my hand is sitting much higher, closer to the top of the wrap area, to me I feel like I can accelerate faster. I might have a video I can try to post.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I allready choke up on my grip and it works well. There is actually scientific facts that back up the usefulness of this method. There is however a limit to how far it's productive to choke up, I think, and I'm still kind of tweaking it a little. At this point I'm moving my hand forward about 1 full hands width, sometimes a little more. I'm getting really nice 10 ball breaks since I started doing it, and more break and runs as well.
 
West Point 1987

West Point 1987

On the Hill, Out of Gas
Silver Member
I have spent years (like more than the past five) working on my grip and have tried everything...I have settle on a very loose grip (contacting the cue all the way around, but very loose/light) and find my accuracy and control sky rocketed. The more you muck around with different grips for different shots/english/side/draw, the more inconsistent everything becomes. Nothing beats a straight stroke through the CB, with a light touch. I even found my break improved massively with a light grip. I don't fault anyone finding success elsewhere, but this works for me.
 
One Pocket John

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Straightpool_99 said:
Hmm....I bet a lot of the science guys will object to this...

I have noticed that I do tend to press down on the cue when I draw the ball, and I sometimes use it to prevent a miscue when shooting from the rail. This is obviously psychological:rolleyes:. Especially since it works like a charm. I picked up that pressing down trick from CJ on his grip thread.

Unfortunately since some people are so closed minded, they will never try this and experience it for themeselves. The different grips for various sidespins was new to me and I do tend to shoot my follow shots with a more neutral wrist/hand position so those are some new things to try. I'll give it a spin tomorrow. And give my opinion. I do believe I'm allready doing the draw grip, but not consistently, so there might even be room for improvement there.

Very interesting indeed. Green rep sent.

BTW, maybe there is some sort of trick on the break that's waiting to be discovered? I haven't been as detailed in my analysis on the grip hand on the break. I use some sort of CJ-hammer wrist thing, but maybe there is something better?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the rep.
In The Little Book of Talent the author says look at, in this case the grip. Now break it down to it's smallest part which in this case would be pressure points inside the grip hand. (pressure points in the hands as suggested by Ben Hogan he also teaches dominant fingers but we probably don't want to go down that road. :))

I already use different pressure points in my grip hand (3) so adding a couple of more is not that difficult.

Practiced for a few hours this morning using the 2 new pressure points (I already use the heel pressure point of my grip hand). It was fun.

Now, when watching Earl play using different grip positions I have a good idea of what he is doing. (just a guess :) ) Always wondered why he did that.

John
 
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BeiberLvr

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One Pocket John said:
Watch parts #1, #2 and #3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTYg3xtcEOs

Part #1 Freddy the Beard teaches the same thing in his YouTube videos but does not go into so much detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvjL3D3lsGY

Part #2 Interesting. Need to get the feel for this. Makes sense to me.

Part #3 Using parts #1 and #2 together.

Comments welcome.

John
Click to expand...

You always post some real gems, John.

Unfortunately this isn't one of them.

Can Dr. Strange's grip of pushing the heel down on the cue work? Certainly, but to say it's how you must grip the cue in order to draw the ball effectively, is simply ignorant. I can the draw the ball just as well from that distance literally just pinching the cue between my index finger and thumb. But I wouldn't never make a video claiming that it's the best way to draw the ball.



An effective grip uses the following two principles

1. Loose. Now the definition of loose is really up to the individual. However, I'd say that anywhere in between having the cue fly out of your hand and a death grip is probably okay.

2. No wrist twist. This doesn't mean the wrist has to be perfectly straight. It helps, but certainly not everyone plays that way. Whether your wrist is straight, bends outwards, inwards, upwards, or downwards doesn't really matter as long as the orientation remains the same throughout the stroke.
 
SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
BeiberLvr said:
An effective grip uses the following two principles

1. Loose. Now the definition of loose is really up to the individual. However, I'd say that anywhere in between having the cue fly out of your hand and a death grip is probably okay.

Loose isn't what CJ, some other instructors, or various pro players say to use. They state FIRM. Firm isn't a death grip but it's not loose either.

2. No wrist twist. This doesn't mean the wrist has to be perfectly straight. It helps, but certainly not everyone plays that way. Whether your wrist is straight, bends outwards, inwards, upwards, or downwards doesn't really matter as long as the orientation remains the same throughout the stroke.
Click to expand...

Not according to Buddy Hall when applying Tuck or Roll. The wrist is turned one way or the other in the middle of the forward stroke to alter the cue orientation. Could it be done straight? Sure. But he feels it's better not to.

I think the one solid statement about anything in pool is there are no solid statements written in stone.
 
SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
One Pocket John said:
Thanks for the rep.
In The Little Book of Talent the author says look at, in this case the grip. Now break it down to it's smallest part which in this case would be pressure points inside the grip hand. (pressure points in the hands as suggested by Ben Hogan he also teaches dominant fingers but we probably don't want to go down that road. :))

John
Click to expand...


I think the grip plays a much larger role than has been given attention to.

Stroke addicts who constantly strive to get the perfect stroke and obsess over it should go down that road to put more time into grip pressure and dominant fingers Why? Because the stroke is the sum total of other factors and the hand/finger grip pressure is what controls all of it from the start of the backstroke, to the transition between backstroke and forward stroke, to contact with the CB.

One little variance in the way of tightening, loosening, or which fingers are dominant will throw the stroke out of line in a New York minute to result in a missed shot or unwanted spin.

The most prevalent time it will happen is when the nerves are jangling or on edge and things are more apt to be out of control as opposed to dinking around when practicing with no pressure.
 
8pack

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
One Pocket John said:
Watch parts #1, #2 and #3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTYg3xtcEOs

Part #1 Freddy the Beard teaches the same thing in his YouTube videos but does not go into so much detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvjL3D3lsGY

Part #2 Interesting. Need to get the feel for this. Makes sense to me.

Part #3 Using parts #1 and #2 together.

Comments welcome.

John
Click to expand...

I think it depends on what kinda of draw your seeking in any given shot. I also think what works for one person might not for another. The video below of some draw shots is nothing like what the guys trying to teach. For my power draw I use a certain hand placement an wrist motion. Fast follow through with a snap like motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyCmdq1hP6E
 
B

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
8pack said:
I think it depends on what kinda of draw your seeking in any given shot. I also think what works for one person might not for another. The video below of some draw shots is nothing like what the guys trying to teach. For my power draw I use a certain hand placement an wrist motion. Fast follow through with a snap like motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyCmdq1hP6E
Click to expand...

nice draw
what size table are you shooting on in the video??
 
P

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Straightpool_99 said:
Hmm....I bet a lot of the science guys will object to this...

I have noticed that I do tend to press down on the cue when I draw the ball, and I sometimes use it to prevent a miscue when shooting from the rail. This is obviously psychological:rolleyes:. Especially since it works like a charm. I picked up that pressing down trick from CJ on his grip thread.

Unfortunately since some people are so closed minded, they will never try this and experience it for themeselves. The different grips for various sidespins was new to me and I do tend to shoot my follow shots with a more neutral wrist/hand position so those are some new things to try. I'll give it a spin tomorrow. And give my opinion. I do believe I'm allready doing the draw grip, but not consistently, so there might even be room for improvement there.

Very interesting indeed. Green rep sent.

BTW, maybe there is some sort of trick on the break that's waiting to be discovered? I haven't been as detailed in my analysis on the grip hand on the break. I use some sort of CJ-hammer wrist thing, but maybe there is something better?
Click to expand...

Funny, I discovered that grip thread yesterday and "yaw" has opened a big door for me. Funny you mentioned that thread, it's excellent.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=311057
 
One Pocket John

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
paultex said:
Funny, I discovered that grip thread yesterday and "yaw" has opened a big door for me. Funny you mentioned that thread, it's excellent.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=311057
Click to expand...

Good for you.
Here is what I call the basic holding of the cue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZaejfsbMGc

Notice that the thumb is not pointing straight down to the floor.
In a standing position with no cue in your hand, look down at your hand. You may notice that the back part of the hand is pointing slightly away from your body and the thumb is angled in toward your body. This is important, this is your natural hand position.
Now, there is nothing wrong with holding the cue in an unnatural position, you just have to make sure you do it the same way every time. Personally I stick with the natural position.

When you raise the cue up as shown notice exactly where you are feeling the cue in your hand.

For me the basic feeling of the cue is three pressure points. 1. the first pad from my hand to the first knuckle of my middle finger. 2. the space in between the first knuckle and second knuckle of the thumb. 3. The heel of my hand. (my index finger is not used in holding the cue ever.)
This is the basic grip.

From there you can start experimenting with the added pressure points as shown in the video.

It may be a good idea to work with the basic grip for a few months and then move on to the additional two pressure points.

You play this game with your grip hand what your feeling in your grip hand. Cue selection and construction should offer the best feel of the cue ball.

For me, cue butts constructed using Ebony or African Black wood, a good high performance shaft and a medium hardness tip provide the best feel for me. Your cue construction selection may differ, you will have to experiment.

I know you have put yourself on a time limit to pick this game up, so start strok'in. :)

John
 
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P

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One Pocket John said:
Good for you.
Here is what I call the basic holding of the cue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZaejfsbMGc

Notice that the thumb is not pointing straight down to the floor.
In a standing position with no cue in your hand, look down at your hand. You may notice that the back part of the hand is pointing slightly away from your body and the thumb is angled in toward your body. This is important, this is your natural hand position.
Now, there is nothing wrong with holding the cue in an unnatural position, you just have to make sure you do it the same way every time. Personally I stick with the natural position.

When you raise the cue up as shown notice exactly where you are feeling the cue in your hand.

For me the basic feeling of the cue is three pressure points. 1. the first pad from my hand to the first knuckle of my middle finger. 2. the space in between the first knuckle and second knuckle of the thumb. 3. The heel of my hand. (my index finger is not used in holding the cue ever.)
This is the basic grip.

From there you can start experimenting with the added pressure points as shown in the video.

It may be a good idea to work with the basic grip for a few months and then move on to the additional two pressure points.

You play this game with your grip hand what your feeling in your grip hand. Cue selection and construction should offer the best feel of the cue ball.

For me, cue butts constructed using Ebony or African Black wood, a good high performance shaft and a medium hardness tip provide the best feel for me. Your cue construction selection may differ, you will have to experiment.

I know you have put yourself on a time limit to pick this game up, so start strok'in. :)

John
Click to expand...

Actually, my time limit is based on progress and what's achieveable. I would never quit if it was just a question of knowledge or development. I got almost 11 months now and I know where I should be by then if I apply myself and I have been to a required degree.

If I'm not there by then, then it's because I don't have what it takes or the requirements are too unreasonable. I speak in terms of me but I'm talking in a sense that I think is reasonable for most people.

I haven't watched anything yet on this entire thread but I suspect the videos you posted is from some heavy accent swede dude. I'll be sure to watch it all later and read the entire grip thread too.

I've personally discovered many things about stroke over the past week or two and I've found a direction with a pre-pivot move to skew or manipulate "yaw" because my backstroke is a major culprit and I haven't found a way to "feel it" going back that's reliable.

....but the prepivot is proving very interesting.

Back to the table
 
Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
After about 5-6 hours of experimenting with this, I've come to the conclusion that for me, there wasn't mutch to gain from any of the suggestions.

I've spent years on my grip and my wrist snap and general timing, I certainly wouldn't expect this simple suggestion to improve on that instantly, anyway. I think I would notice, however, if there was some real, hidden potential, but I just didn't see it at all. Trying to get the pressure point in the back of the hand involved seemed to lessen my power rather than increase it. While I do sometimes feel that pressure point, trying to "force it" in any way took away power and accuracy. As for follow and sidespin, I couldn't get any improvements there either. I still think it was an interesting set of ideas. Sadly I couldn't make them work.

I allready have a "wall" in the form of my palm, and very solid pressure points on the front fingers, guiding the cue in a very tight grove that helps it go straight. Just for fun, I tried the "teacup grip" that has no real guidance of the cue and got quite a lot of draw with that too, but it's hard to get the maximum amount of power when you do this. Also my accuracy went flying out of the window. How some of the "freewheeling" pinoys pocket balls, I'll never know?

Well, it was worth a shot.
 
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One Pocket John

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
paultex said:
Actually, my time limit is based on progress and what's achieveable. I would never quit if it was just a question of knowledge or development. I got almost 11 months now and I know where I should be by then if I apply myself and I have been to a required degree.

If I'm not there by then, then it's because I don't have what it takes or the requirements are too unreasonable. I speak in terms of me but I'm talking in a sense that I think is reasonable for most people.

I haven't watched anything yet on this entire thread but I suspect the videos you posted is from some heavy accent swede dude. I'll be sure to watch it all later and read the entire grip thread too.

I've personally discovered many things about stroke over the past week or two and I've found a direction with a pre-pivot move to skew or manipulate "yaw" because my backstroke is a major culprit and I haven't found a way to "feel it" going back that's reliable.

....but the prepivot is proving very interesting.

Back to the table
Click to expand...

Thats cool.

Visit this site. You can either read the whole article or you can scroll down to:
How to Accelerate Skill Development.
http://lifehacker.com/5939374/a-better-way-to-practice

In bold. From the elbow down, your arm can hinge closed in only one direction. Get in a shooting position that allows the arm to close naturally. This should cure your back swing issue.

Have fun and enjoy the journey. :)
John
 
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One Pocket John

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Straightpool_99 said:
After about 5-6 hours of experimenting with this, I've come to the conclusion that for me, there wasn't mutch to gain from any of the suggestions.

I've spent years on my grip and my wrist snap and general timing, I certainly wouldn't expect this simple suggestion to improve on that instantly, anyway. I think I would notice, however, if there was some real, hidden potential, but I just didn't see it at all. Trying to get the pressure point in the back of the hand involved seemed to lessen my power rather than increase it. While I do sometimes feel that pressure point, trying to "force it" in any way took away power and accuracy. As for follow and sidespin, I couldn't get any improvements there either. I still think it was an interesting set of ideas. Sadly I couldn't make them work.

I allready have a "wall" in the form of my palm, and very solid pressure points on the front fingers, guiding the cue in a very tight grove that helps it go straight. Just for fun, I tried the "teacup grip" that has no real guidance of the cue and got quite a lot of draw with that too, but it's hard to get the maximum amount of power when you do this. Also my accuracy went flying out of the window. How some of the "freewheeling" pinoys pocket balls, I'll never know?

Well, it was worth a shot.
Click to expand...

In bold.

The inside right and outside left of the hand are pressure points only to feel in your grip hand. They are not for applying more spin to the cue ball. That would lead to Back Hand English BHE which is a different topic all together.
At least you gave it a shot. :)

Thanks

John
 
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