Bending a bank shot

Poolplaya9

Poolplaya9

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pool101 said:
One more video, in this video the four ball is not actually in the way, it had rolled off the paper donut. The ball hopped twice with a slight change of direction on each hop. The largest change in direction is after the second hop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu5AOYu7f38
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Also not trying to pick on you but I see the same thing your last video showed: a bank that was possible without any curve at all being needed (although the side viewing angle gives the illusion that it may not be possible without a curve), a slight curve that did in fact happen of maybe a 1/4 inch, and a curve that ended up looking more exaggerated than it was again because of the optical illusions that are created by the side viewing angle instead of being able to look perfectly down the line of the shot and your drawn line.
 
pool101

pool101

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dr_dave said:
Again, per the explanations in my post above, it is not clear where the ball leaves the cushion. You would need to capture a video frame where the ball is fully compressed into the cushion to know an accurate reference position and line off the rail (or locate where the OB first lands, as I showed above). The limited video frames and camera angle in your video are potentially misleading (as I describe in my bank bend myth video). With your ball setup, there appears to be plenty of room for a straight bank to clear both the 6 and 4. I'm not saying your banked ball is not bending, but I am sure it is not bending as much as you seem to be suggesting.

Here's the best legitimate bank bend video I've seen to date (from the bank bend resource page), where the camera is well positioned to best see the bend without possible perception issues. That bank is clearly bending, and by a significant amount.

Regards,
Dave
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If his video did not teach you , nothing will. Good luck with your game.
 
Poolplaya9

Poolplaya9

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pool101 said:
Frame by frame, I put a dot as close to the edge and centered height wise on each frame. It is hard to get exact due to the motion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVSMx07Gcc8
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I really like the work you put into this. Really good use of the software and your markings are well done.

What needs to be done to increase the accuracy with which you can see how much curve you are actually getting is to re-position the camera to where it is directly in line with your first and last dots, which is the same as saying the camera view needs to be exactly down the purple line so that the purple line is going directly away from the camera and not a little to the left or right. When you do this, as long as there are enough frames to accurately be able to tell where the ball comes off the rail, what I think you are going to find is that the purple line is not over as much of the four ball as you thought it was and it may not even be over any of it at all, and the distance between your purple line and the dotted curved line is going to be less that what appears here. Again, this side camera angle serves to exaggerate both of these things. Nobody is saying you can't curve the ball though, it just isn't happening to the extent that you think it is.
 
pool101

pool101

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Poolplaya9 said:
I really like the work you put into this. Really good use of the software and your markings are well done.

What needs to be done to increase the accuracy with which you can see how much curve you are actually getting is to re-position the camera to where it is directly in line with your first and last dots, which is the same as saying the camera view needs to be exactly down the purple line so that the purple line is going directly away from the camera and not a little to the left or right. When you do this, as long as there are enough frames to accurately be able to tell where the ball comes off the rail, what I think you are going to find is that the purple line is not over as much of the four ball as you thought it was and it may not even be over any of it at all, and the distance between your purple line and the dotted curved line is going to be less that what appears here. Again, this side camera angle serves to exaggerate both of these things. Nobody is saying you can't curve the ball though, it just isn't happening to the extent that you think it is.
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The camera is on the line of the shot, it is looking down the line that the ball travels from rail to pocket as best as I could.
When the best bank pool player in the world (John) says he can bend a ball around another to make the ball I listen. He never said an inch, he said enough to make the shot and he can.
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

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Looks to me like the extreme English imparted to the object ball by the cue ball (using inside English) is making the object ball swerve slightly. Almost the same effect as a half masse shot and we all know how much the cue ball swerves there. Either way it's a helluva bank shot imo! :thumbup:
 
Poolplaya9

Poolplaya9

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pool101 said:
The camera is on the line of the shot...
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As was explained in the post you quoted, for a shot like this the line of the shot is defined as the edge of the ball as it comes off the rail and the same edge of the ball as it it is about to drop into the pocket being in direct line with each other such that when you draw a line between those two points the line will be facing directly away from the camera and not at an angle to the left or right. You are very clearly not on the line of the shot or even real close. Now if what you are really trying to say is "well I could have been even further from the line of the shot than I was" then all would agree.

pool101 said:
...it is looking down the line that the ball travels from rail to pocket as best as I could.
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Obviously you can't change the camera angle for a shot that has already happened. The suggestion was so that you could get better accuracy if you try to film this type of shot in the future. Now that you know how to do it, the only thing that would prevent you from getting the camera directly in line with the line of the shot in the future with the pretty minimal effort of just a bit of trial and error is your willingness because you certainly have the capability.

pool101 said:
When the best bank pool player in the world (John) says he can bend a ball around another to make the ball I listen. He never said an inch, he said enough to make the shot and he can.
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What people think is happening and what is actually happening are very often two very different things. That said, I don't know of anyone that says it is impossible for the object ball to curve at all during a bank, and since a small amount of curve is possible, it is therefore possible that a banked ball could curve around the edge of a ball that was slightly obstructing a part of the "straight" banking lane. Now being able to judge it precisely and execute it reliably in a game situation is not likely but when the table dictates that trying it is still your best shot choice you are going to end up making a few of them.
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

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For your edification. I saw Eddie Taylor bank balls OVER obstructing object balls. He would bank them off the rail so hard that they flew over the edge (or more) of an obstructing ball. He could bank a ball cross side that never hit the cloth until it was a few inches from the side pocket. I think he elevated the cue slightly before shooting to make the cue ball gain a little loft before hitting the object ball. He could do this it with accuracy and control, almost like shooting a normal shot. His skill on shots like these was comparable to the skill that present day players have on routine jump shots. Cannonball was the only other player I ever saw attempt shots like this. But Taylor had it wired! I'm pretty sure John Brumback can make similar shots as well, and he may actually be doing this on some of the shots he frams cross side. I know they're in the air for a short distance before coming back down. They may well be going over the edge of a ball that's slightly blocking the pocket.
 
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jay helfert

jay helfert

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pool101 said:
Here is the line exactly on edge of the ball in both positions. http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=476444&stc=1&d=1511290482
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Curve is CURVE and there is no question in my mind that the object had to curve a little to pass the obstructing ball here. So to answer the question, it is possible to make the object ball curve or bend on a bank shot. Once again, that's no different than the slight curve we put on the cue ball to shoot a half masse shot, where usually a quarter of an inch is all you need to get around the obstructing ball.

Either way, I'm glad to see a good discussion on Banks with John and Dr. Dave, two very knowledgeable guys. I'm sure Freddie would approve. :thumbup2:
 
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pool101

pool101

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTIBLubgwwI
First I did a white line from where the ball leaves the rail to where it enters the pocket.
Then I made a straight white line from the ball leaving the rail and table bed (air born) to where it lands on first bounce, and extended the line of original travel.
Then I did another red line from where the ball landed first bounce to where the ball landed second bounce.
Another line (green) from second bounce to third bounce. At this point the ball seems to stay in contact with the table though maybe with less down force.
Final line is a yellow line from third bounce to where the ball enters the pocket.
It appears that at each contact with the table that ball changes direction due to the rotation and force.
How much change in original direction do you see?
 
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G

garczar

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dr_dave said:
Again, per the explanations in my post above, it is not clear where the ball leaves the cushion. You would need to capture a video frame where the ball is fully compressed into the cushion to know an accurate reference position and line off the rail (or locate where the OB first lands, as I showed above). The limited video frames and camera angle in your video are potentially misleading (as I describe in my bank bend myth video). With your ball setup, there appears to be plenty of room for a straight bank to clear both the 6 and 4. I'm not saying your banked ball is not bending, but I am sure it is not bending as much as you seem to be suggesting.

Here's the best legitimate bank bend video I've seen to date (from the bank bend resource page), where the camera is well positioned to best see the bend without possible perception issues. That bank is clearly bending, and by a significant amount.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
Wow. That one does bend a lot.
 
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