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FranCrimi
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11-25-2017, 02:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
I think force follow is the CB spinning forward like a car burning out on the tires, peeling rubber. If the CB does this and hits the OB first or the rail first, it's still "force-follow".
I agree in shots where the cb doubles the rail for example, because it's driving forward in the same direction. But I'm wondering if in your rail-first case, the cb would have to keep driving itself into the same rail for it to be force follow. But that's not what happened. I think the spin changed direction.


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Overspin - 11-25-2017, 02:38 PM

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Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
I think force follow is the CB spinning forward like a car burning out on the tires, peeling rubber. If the CB does this and hits the OB first or the rail first, it's still "force-follow".
Here is a link to Mike Page's test for possible over spin. http://www.sb8ball.com/Videos/Mobile/iv0033.html. The test shows it is almost impossible to actually get the ball to spin forward faster than it rolls. The tiny bit of over spin he is able to generate is almost not measurable and would wear off in one inch of forward travel as the ball reaches full forward roll. The idea that the cue ball "burns rubber" spinning forward is a widely believed concept and taught by many professional instructors. But scientifically it does not prove out. I questioned Dr. Dave about the actual forces that cause the cue ball to "want to" continue forward. Was it inertia? the idea that an object in motion tends to stay in motion?, etc. He did not directly answer me but referred me to his videos which demonstrate the ball is not over spinning but do not say:
1. If the ball stops turning forward at impact then resumes
2. Leaves the surface of the cloth so continues to spin in the air then resumes when it hits, etc.

I just found a slow motion video clip which explains it better. http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...w.html#dribble
Overspin appears to happen when the weight of the cue ball is lifted from the cloth. So a tiny bit as Mike Page demonstrates on hit with the cue, then forward roll only until impact. At impact the ball lifts from the cloth and continues to spin in the air. Then when it lands it continues its forward roll. So as near as I can tell the friction with the cloth propels the cue ball forward at high speed, not slipping on the cloth, but when the cue ball collides its forward motion is stopped. The cue ball lifts (or climbs) enough to lose friction with the cloth and free spins in the air. When it re-connects with the cloth the friction propels it forward again.

That makes sense to me as I have often observed the cue ball bounce quite high then drop and spin forward, like on a break shot or a "high action" shot into a rail.
  
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11-25-2017, 02:47 PM

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Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
My teacher knows dozens of shots where it is the only way to get the CB to certain spots. He can use it for perfect position, bust out balls, perform safeties, etc. You don't want the 9 or 10 ball anywhere near a pocket or it will be gone. I posted this because there are a lot of pool players hating this shot because it occurs when they don't want it to for ball in jaws. But, it can be very useful to know.
Here is a clip of the Rail Dribble shot http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV4-8.htm

The next clip http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_...ew/HSVB-21.htm him using rail dribble with a small cut angle to deflect back, go around a ball and return to follow the rail and make a hanger. It shows the cue ball continuously spinning forward while it is slightly off the cloth then grabbing when it lands and shooting forward to pocket the ball.

This effect can be obtained without hitting extremely high on the cue ball. All it needs is enough distance to develop adequate forward roll.
  
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11-25-2017, 04:04 PM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
Here is a clip of the Rail Dribble shot http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV4-8.htm

The next clip http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_...ew/HSVB-21.htm him using rail dribble with a small cut angle to deflect back, go around a ball and return to follow the rail and make a hanger. It shows the cue ball continuously spinning forward while it is slightly off the cloth then grabbing when it lands and shooting forward to pocket the ball.

This effect can be obtained without hitting extremely high on the cue ball. All it needs is enough distance to develop adequate forward roll.
I believe the CB can spin forward, just as it does in draw...on the cloth.


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11-25-2017, 07:57 PM

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Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
I believe the CB can spin forward, just as it does in draw...on the cloth.
The cue ball rarely leaves the tip with overspin. That is difficult to accomplish and dangerous. If you meant something else, it was not clear from your statement. Please clarify.


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11-26-2017, 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The cue ball rarely leaves the tip with overspin. That is difficult to accomplish and dangerous. If you meant something else, it was not clear from your statement. Please clarify.
A lot of people, including some top instructors believe this happens, in spite of the slow motion video evidence that disputes it. I have heard Jerry Briesath and Bert Kinister refer to "overspin" as the cue ball front spinning faster then the ball is rolling. MANY people believe the ball overspins its way down the table and never catches up. The slow motion video shows the ball just rolls faster and any small amount of cue tip induced overspin that might exist is converted to forward roll almost immediately but people don't believe that.

They overstate the effect of "high action" on the cue ball.

The slow motion videos show that is not what is actually happening and it isn't until the cue ball impacts something and lifts its weight off the table that it actually spins faster than its forward motion and that is because it is in the air with no friction. It might be able to over spin on ice or something but not much on a cloth table.

I would defer to you, as an authority on this and know you have tested it. Is my understanding accurate? BTW my intention is to improve my own understanding, not to debate the issue with anyone's personal belief. I would just like to get your opinion on my own understanding. One thing I am sure of, having a perfect technical understanding of the physics doesn't make a person a great pool player. I just "strive to be technically correct" in all areas of my life.

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11-26-2017, 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
A lot of people, including some top instructors believe this happens, in spite of the slow motion video evidence that disputes it. I have heard Jerry Briesath and Bert Kinister refer to "overspin" as the cue ball front spinning faster then the ball is rolling. MANY people believe the ball overspins its way down the table and never catches up. The slow motion video shows the ball just rolls faster and any small amount of cue tip induced overspin that might exist is converted to forward roll almost immediately but people don't believe that.

They overstate the effect of "high action" on the cue ball.

The slow motion videos show that is not what is actually happening and it isn't until the cue ball impacts something and lifts its weight off the table that it actually spins faster than its forward motion and that is because it is in the air with no friction. It might be able to over spin on ice or something but not much on a cloth table.

I would defer to you, as an authority on this and know you have tested it. Is my understanding accurate? BTW my intention is to improve my own understanding, not to debate the issue with anyone's personal belief. I would just like to get your opinion on my own understanding. One thing I am sure of, having a perfect technical understanding of the physics doesn't make a person a great pool player. I just "strive to be technically correct" in all areas of my life.
I do believe that hitting the OB directly head on, the two balls of equal weight come to a stop. The energy goes over to the OB and it heads out. If the CB has "over spin", it will continue on like tires peeling and head toward the OB. If it is sliding, it will stop, if it has reverse, it will draw backwards. Where am I wrong?


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11-26-2017, 10:39 AM

.
A video from Mike Page... Fargo Billiards... http://youtu.be/1WzyxhCl0vs

.


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FranCrimi
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11-26-2017, 11:37 AM

How about we all get on the same page in defining the term 'force follow.'

Bob Jewett, can you define the term for us please? Thanks!


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11-26-2017, 03:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Kramden View Post
.
A video from Mike Page... Fargo Billiards... http://youtu.be/1WzyxhCl0vs

.
Fran.. IMO force follow is actually demonstrated at 5:40 in the above video... It could be that Bob Jewett would give us a better explanation.
.


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FranCrimi
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11-26-2017, 04:56 PM

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Originally Posted by Ralph Kramden View Post
Fran.. IMO force follow is actually demonstrated at 5:40 in the above video... It could be that Bob Jewett would give us a better explanation.
.
So are you saying that the definition of a force follow shot is any shot in which overspin occurs? I'm wondering if there are any other conditions that must occur in order for the shot to be classified as force follow. Would you happen to know?


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11-26-2017, 05:32 PM

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I do believe that hitting the OB directly head on, the two balls of equal weight come to a stop. The energy goes over to the OB and it heads out. If the CB has "over spin", it will continue on like tires peeling and head toward the OB. If it is sliding, it will stop, if it has reverse, it will draw backwards. Where am I wrong?
It is not that you are wrong. That is what happens. As I understand it, it is the idea the reason the ball moves forward is it is"over spinning" as opposed to just forward rolling. A sliding cue ball stops. A back spinning cue ball backs up if it has back spin left after the collision. But a forward rolling cue ball is not spinning faster then it can roll, trying to get traction, it is just rotating forward.

I know it seems like it but I believe that is what the issue is. It is turning forward like a back spinning ball is turning back ward. The difference is the back spin is slipping and unable to make the ball go backwards until it hits something. The forward spin just makes the ball roll faster in the same way the back spinning ball slows the forward roll speed. The more spin the faster the roll. It is simply rolling, not sliding or back spinning or front spinning. A rolling cue ball can have degrees of roll, partial or full. At full roll it "wants" to continue rolling and a collision with a single ball of the same weight is not enough to stop it. It hits, lifts from the cloth a fraction, or sometimes a lot, and continues to "roll" (rotate). When it re-connects with the cloth it gets traction and goes forward. It is simply pushing the object ball out of its way.

It is semantics and the only difference is: Is the ball spinning along the cloth at whatever speed it is rolling, or is it spinning faster than it is rolling (over spin). From a pool players point of view it makes absolutely no difference. Who cares what someone calls it if they know what to expect? From an engineer's point of view, my understanding is, it is a technical mistake to say the ball is spinning faster than it is rolling.

I am not an expert and could be totally wrong. I have just seen the studies on this and hope Bob will take a moment to help us sort it out.

This is how Dr. Dave explains it:
Also, NV B.36 shows a simple experiment to show how difficult it is to achieve overspin without miscuing.

Now, after a CB hits an OB, it can most certainly have overspin. For example, in HSV 4.3 and NV 4.8 the CB has topspin. Before it hits the OB, the amount of topspin is the natural rolling amount (i.e., there is no "overspin"). After the CB hits the OB, the CB has more topspin than the natural rolling amount (i.e., there is "overspin"). This is what causes the CB to "follow" the OB to the rail. After rebound off the rail, some of the spin is retained (which looks like bottom spin now) causing the CB to draw back to the rail.

Note before the collision there is no overspin. The overspin results in the attempt to stop the forward progress of the rolling ball. The overspin is a result of the collision. The ball isn't spinning faster, it just isn't going forward any more and "wants" to continue.

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11-26-2017, 05:37 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
So are you saying that the definition of a force follow shot is any shot in which overspin occurs? I'm wondering if there are any other conditions that must occur in order for the shot to be classified as force follow. Would you happen to know?
My understanding of Force Follow is hitting as high on the cue ball as possible to give it immediate forward roll, not necessarily any overspin. It is an attempt to eliminate the sliding segment which precedes roll and get the cue ball into full roll immediately.

Dr. Dave writes

What is force follow, and how and when is it used?

A force follow shot is a follow shot hit with maximum topspin and fast speed. This term is used mostly when referring to a nearly straight-in (small cut angle) follow shot.

He doesn't mention overspin in conjunction with Force Follow but he clearly says overspin is possible, just not much and not for long.

What is your understanding of Force Follow?

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11-26-2017, 05:40 PM

It seems that "force" follow is pretty straightforward. Look at a straight-in shot, a full-ball hit, for example. When a rolling CB strikes the OB, its momentum is transferred to the OB, but inertia keeps the CB rolling, causing it to continue to follow it's normal path until eventually coming to a stop within a few inches, or within a couple of feet depending on initial speed. On a stun shot there is no rolling CB movement, and once the CB's momentum is transferred to the OB at impact, the cue ball stops dead. So that's the two natural CB options -- stop or roll forward.

If a forward-spinning CB strikes the OB, the momentum transfers from CB to OB as typical, but then the energy of that torqued CB kicks in and "forces" it forward. It's not rolling forward due to its inertia. It's the additional force/torque (top spin) that causes it to continue along its path, forcing it forward. A draw shot is the same thing -- a forced action in reverse direction. If the CB strikes the OB with enough forward spin or backward spin to force/propel it forward or backward after hitting the OB, it's a "forced" shot. The CB is forced to move and then begins to roll, and its inertia keeps it rolling until the friction of the cloth finally stops it.


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11-26-2017, 07:05 PM

i am not an instructor
but to me "force follow"
is when instead of rolling the cue ball has enough follow to "down shift" and turbo charge forward
ie "bend" or :"duck" from its path
ie go along the tangent line some and then go forward as opposed to the "peace sign where a rolling ball (ie must have follow on it) takes the 30 degree path
i assume dennis is reffering to shots where when the bend occurs can be controlled
  
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