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(#31)
Bob Jewett
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11-26-2017, 07:15 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by FranCrimi How about we all get on the same page in defining the term 'force follow.' Bob Jewett, can you define the term for us please? Thanks!
When I was first learning about power strokes, force follow for me was only when the balls were close as with a fouette. Similarly, back then a "force draw" shot was a fouette draw shot.

I think the usage now is for any power follow shot where the cue ball gets most of its energy from the follow and it's with a fair amount of power.

I suppose a good example would be a side-of-the-rack break at 14.1 where the cue ball follows into and through the rack. That is not usually a full hit on the object ball but the energy from the follow is an important part of the shot.

A bad example is when you just follow a ball six diamonds down to the other end of the table. That's not a special power shot in my view.

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(#32)
FranCrimi
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11-26-2017, 11:21 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bob Jewett When I was first learning about power strokes, force follow for me was only when the balls were close as with a fouette. Similarly, back then a "force draw" shot was a fouette draw shot. I think the usage now is for any power follow shot where the cue ball gets most of its energy from the follow and it's with a fair amount of power. I suppose a good example would be a side-of-the-rack break at 14.1 where the cue ball follows into and through the rack. That is not usually a full hit on the object ball but the energy from the follow is an important part of the shot. A bad example is when you just follow a ball six diamonds down to the other end of the table. That's not a special power shot in my view.

That's how I see it too. I see it as a two-part shot where in the first part, the cue ball is sliding forward while it's rotating ---- the rotations acting like a buzz saw as it forces through the rack, and then once it stops sliding, the high level of rotations kick in and you get a second thrust that continues to drive it through the rack.

But I always see that pronounced second thrust with a force follow shot. Part one is the force and part two is the follow.

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(#33)
bbb
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11-27-2017, 04:16 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by FranCrimi That's how I see it too. I see it as a two-part shot where in the first part, the cue ball is sliding forward while it's rotating ---- the rotations acting like a buzz saw as it forces through the rack, and then once it stops sliding, the high level of rotations kick in and you get a second thrust that continues to drive it through the rack. But I always see that pronounced second thrust with a force follow shot. Part one is the force and part two is the follow.
thats a great definition fran

(#34)
BC21
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11-27-2017, 06:17 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bob Jewett When I was first learning about power strokes, force follow for me was only when the balls were close as with a fouette. Similarly, back then a "force draw" shot was a fouette draw shot. I think the usage now is for any power follow shot where the cue ball gets most of its energy from the follow and it's with a fair amount of power. I suppose a good example would be a side-of-the-rack break at 14.1 where the cue ball follows into and through the rack. That is not usually a full hit on the object ball but the energy from the follow is an important part of the shot. A bad example is when you just follow a ball six diamonds down to the other end of the table. That's not a special power shot in my view.
Ok...this all makes sense. So is there an official definition of FORCE FOLLOW?

With the correct speed, one could send the CB following the OB a distance of six diamonds by simply hitting a tip above center with a medium stroke, or a medium soft stroke on fast cloth. It surely isn't a power shot, but it should be considered a forced-follow shot if any top spin imparted on the CB kicks in after it contacts the OB. The top spin forces the CB forward at a faster rate than its natural roll. In other words, if the the CB is "forced" forward after impacting the OB, it could be called a "force" follow shot.

When normal speed, combined with a natural roll, will not get the CB where it needs to go, you must force it. It may not always be a power stroke, but it's still a forced shot. This applies to top/forward spin as well as draw/back spin. I mean, a draw shot is simply a force-follow shot in reverse. It's a torque applied to the CB that takes effect immediately after striking it. It either dissipates (due to table/cloth friction) prior to the CB contacting something, like an object ball or a cushion, or it forces the CB forward or reverse after it makes contact with an OB or a cushion.

Here's an example of a power-stroked force follow in slow motion.... Power Stroke -- Force Follow

I also recorded two other follow shots, one with a medium firm stroke and one at with a medium soft stroke, but didn't upload them to YouTube. The medium firm shot clearly showed the top spin kicking in and forcing the CB forward after contacting the OB. It didn't climb up the back of the OB as dramatically as this power follow shot did, but the forced torque was easily noticed. The medium soft stroke gave a natural CB roll through the OB.

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Brian Crist

(#35)
denwhit
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11-27-2017, 06:57 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BC21 Ok...this all makes sense. So is there an official definition of FORCE FOLLOW? With the correct speed, one could send the CB following the OB a distance of six diamonds by simply hitting a tip above center with a medium stroke, or a medium soft stroke on fast cloth. It surely isn't a power shot, but it should be considered a forced-follow shot if any top spin imparted on the CB kicks in after it contacts the OB. The top spin forces the CB forward at a faster rate than its natural roll. In other words, if the the CB is "forced" forward after impacting the OB, it could be called a "force" follow shot. When normal speed, combined with a natural roll, will not get the CB where it needs to go, you must force it. It may not always be a power stroke, but it's still a forced shot. This applies to top/forward spin as well as draw/back spin. I mean, a draw shot is simply a force-follow shot in reverse. It's a torque applied to the CB that takes effect immediately after striking it. It either dissipates (due to table/cloth friction) prior to the CB contacting something, like an object ball or a cushion, or it forces the CB forward or reverse after it makes contact with an OB or a cushion. Here's an example of a power-stroked force follow in slow motion.... Power Stroke -- Force Follow I also recorded two other follow shots, one with a medium firm stroke and one at with a medium soft stroke, but didn't upload them to YouTube. The medium firm shot clearly showed the top spin kicking in and forcing the CB forward after contacting the OB. It didn't climb up the back of the OB as dramatically as this power follow shot did, but the forced torque was easily noticed. The medium soft stroke gave a natural CB roll through the OB.
Nice video! And if someone does this shot near head on the OB and into a rail, it just kills itself as we all know with ball-in-jaws. Have a table that runs off badly and you want to hang the ball up by the rail, this is the way to do it. But, I've seen many, many other ways to use FF on shape and busting out balls. Many times it's the only way to get the CB where it needs to go. Question; how many of us work on this? Most of us have probably never seen it used in a very useful way like my teacher can do time after time. Watching him has convinced me to work on it. I will try to film and video a few unique shots.

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Last edited by denwhit; 11-27-2017 at 07:11 AM.

(#36)
BC21
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11-27-2017, 07:09 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by denwhit Nice video! And if someone does this shot near head on the OB and into a rail, it just kills itself as we all know with ball-in-jaws. Have a table that runs off badly and you want to hang the ball up by the rail, this is the way to do it. But, I've seen many, many other ways to use FF on shape and busting out balls. Many times it's the only way to get the CB where it needs to go. Question; how many of us work on this?
To be honest....I don't work on it. When a shot comes up that requires a power force follow, I just give it the power and hit the CB a tip above center. It's not the most controlled shot, but I suppose if you work on it you can get an excellent feel for exactly how much power is needed based on distance between the CB and OB. For me it typically doesn't get used all that much so I don't invest much time into perfecting the shot. When I need it, it automatically works.

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Brian Crist

(#37)
denwhit
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11-27-2017, 07:16 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BC21 To be honest....I don't work on it. When a shot comes up that requires a power force follow, I just give it the power and hit the CB a tip above center. It's not the most controlled shot, but I suppose if you work on it you can get an excellent feel for exactly how much power is needed based on distance between the CB and OB. For me it typically doesn't get used all that much so I don't invest much time into perfecting the shot. When I need it, it automatically works.
When the CB bends, as it does with draw, with FF, the bending of the CB can be very useful. Around balls that would be in the normal path, as I have shown in the video I posted the other day, but there are many other useful things. I guess if one hasn't seen it, it doesn't get into our knowledge.

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(#38)
skipbales
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11-27-2017, 07:16 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BC21 Ok...this all makes sense. So is there an official definition of FORCE FOLLOW? With the correct speed, one could send the CB following the OB a distance of six diamonds by simply hitting a tip above center with a medium stroke, or a medium soft stroke on fast cloth. It surely isn't a power shot, but it should be considered a forced-follow shot if any top spin imparted on the CB kicks in after it contacts the OB. The top spin forces the CB forward at a faster rate than its natural roll. In other words, if the the CB is "forced" forward after impacting the OB, it could be called a "force" follow shot. When normal speed, combined with a natural roll, will not get the CB where it needs to go, you must force it. It may not always be a power stroke, but it's still a forced shot. This applies to top/forward spin as well as draw/back spin. I mean, a draw shot is simply a force-follow shot in reverse. It's a torque applied to the CB that takes effect immediately after striking it. It either dissipates (due to table/cloth friction) prior to the CB contacting something, like an object ball or a cushion, or it forces the CB forward or reverse after it makes contact with an OB or a cushion. Here's an example of a power-stroked force follow in slow motion.... Power Stroke -- Force Follow I also recorded two other follow shots, one with a medium firm stroke and one at with a medium soft stroke, but didn't upload them to YouTube. The medium firm shot clearly showed the top spin kicking in and forcing the CB forward after contacting the OB. It didn't climb up the back of the OB as dramatically as this power follow shot did, but the forced torque was easily noticed. The medium soft stroke gave a natural CB roll through the OB.
That is a great video. It shows the cue ball hitting with enough force to bounce up in the air, spin like crazy then get traction and shoot forward. I think that is the action we all see in actual play. The idea that it keeps overspinning down the table without getting full traction is what I don't think happens. It is the collision which causes the overspin. Once there is traction the spin just increases the speed until there is another collision.

The force follow is the idea of hitting it with enough force to cause the collision to lift the ball and allow it to free spin, kind of giving it that burning rubber effect to start. This would require pretty close proximity to the object ball which seems to also be a component of force follow. If the object all is 3/4 of a table away I don't think you can actually do a force follow, can you? I think it is just a hard hit by the time it gets there no matter how high or hard you hit the cue ball. The break shot might be an exception due to the mass of the balls being struck. Even at distance we have all seen the cue ball bounce up into the air spinning forward then drop and continue. I am less sure that a single ball can provide the resistance necessary, at distance, to provide the stopping power to develop the overspin.

(#39)
denwhit
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11-27-2017, 07:20 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by skipbales That is a great video. It shows the cue ball hitting with enough force to bounce up in the air, spin like crazy then get traction and shoot forward. I think that is the action we all see in actual play. The idea that it keeps overspinning down the table without getting full traction is what I don't think happens. It is the collision which causes the overspin. Once there is traction the spin just increases the speed until there is another collision. The force follow is the idea of hitting it with enough force to cause the collision to lift the ball and allow it to free spin, kind of giving it that burning rubber effect to start. This would require pretty close proximity to the object ball which seems to also be a component of force follow. If the object all is 3/4 of a table away I don't think you can actually do a force follow, can you? I think it is just a hard hit by the time it gets there no matter how high or hard you hit the cue ball. The break shot might be an exception due to the mass of the balls being struck. Even at distance we have all seen the cue ball bounce up into the air spinning forward then drop and continue. I am less sure that a single ball can provide the resistance necessary, at distance, to provide the stopping power to develop the overspin.
No, on a 9' table hitting a ball-in-jaws and you hit over 3/4 ball with the CB on the end rail and the ball just stops near the pocket no matter how hard you hit it, that is FF. This is why you have to hit the ball with such a full hit with low english to get the CB back to where it started.

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(#40)
skipbales
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11-27-2017, 07:25 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by denwhit Nice video! And if someone does this shot near head on the OB and into a rail, it just kills itself as we all know with ball-in-jaws. Have a table that runs off badly and you want to hang the ball up by the rail, this is the way to do it. But, I've seen many, many other ways to use FF on shape and busting out balls. Many times it's the only way to get the CB where it needs to go. Question; how many of us work on this? Most of us have probably never seen it used in a very useful way like my teacher can do time after time. Watching him has convinced me to work on it. I will try to film and video a few unique shots.
Like a lot of occasional use shots it probably doesn't get enough practice. Just like hanger shots. Few practice them and even fewer can get position off of one when they need it. I practice not doing it by accident when I work on hanger shots. With a hanger if you are trying to come back down table and hit it too full you get that collision induced overspin with the second collision (with the rail) and the cue ball stays right there, the opposite result of what you intended.

 (#41) Neil AzB Silver Member   Status: Offline Posts: 17,581 vCash: 2200 iTrader: 2 / 100% Join Date: Jan 2007 11-27-2017, 07:26 AM Here's the def. I have always gone by- It is a force follow shot when the cb is forced farther down the tangent line before the follow takes over; or when it is forced farther from the rail before the follow takes over. This is accomplished simply by adding more force, or speed, to the cb. Max follow occurs at about 70% above the center of the cb. If you have the stripe horizontal, 70% is at the top of the stripe. Overspin, which is the cb rotating faster than forward momentum, dissipates almost immediately as Mike Page has shown. In BC21's video, he thinks it is showing overspin. What it is showing is that the cb will have overspin with only air friction. If one watches the video closely, one can see that the cb takes one bounce and then hits the ob while still airborne. (1:02 clearly shows it off the table at impact, which also is why the cb jumps up in the air after impact) Any time the cb is struck above center, it will have two forces acting on it. Forward momentum, and rotational momentum. Due to friction force acting on the cb from the cloth, the rotational force (or momentum) will almost immediately match the forward force and the cb will be rolling across the felt with no overspin. Immediately upon contact with the ob, some (partial hit) to all (full hit) of the forward momentum will be transferred to the ob. Only a small portion of the rotational force will be transferred. On a soft hit at an angle on the ob, the cb initially travels down the tangent line. at this point the forward force is greater than the rotational force. Due to friction on the cloth, the forward force is almost immediately gone, and then the rotational force is greater and the cb then rolls forward. On a soft hit, this happens almost immediately. The harder the hit, the farther the cb will travel down the tangent line before the cb goes forward. As the two forces become slightly in favor of the rotational force, you can see the cb start to curve or bend on it's path. Shortly after the bend, the directional force will be gone, and all that is left is rotational force. The rotational force still has a large amount of force as very little of it was lost in contact with the ob. But, at all times it is in contact with the cloth, and all that is left is rotational force, the cb will be a rolling ball. How far it travels depends on the force applied to it. edit: Just to be clear here- even on a hard hit, with the cb travelling a ways down the tangent line before you see it go forward, the cb still has the same forward speed at the beginning of the travel down the tangent line as it does at the end of the tangent line. But, because the directinal speed is more than the rotational speed, the cb appears to follow the tangent line for a long distance. It just is moving sideways faster than it is going forward at that time. Last edited by Neil; 11-27-2017 at 07:47 AM.
(#42)
skipbales
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11-27-2017, 07:33 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by denwhit No, on a 9' table hitting a ball-in-jaws and you hit over 3/4 ball with the CB on the end rail and the ball just stops near the pocket no matter how hard you hit it, that is FF. This is why you have to hit the ball with such a full hit with low english to get the CB back to where it started.
Exactly. The rail provides adequate mass a single ball cannot. The rail puts a stop to the cue ball no matter how hard it is hit. The full rack does that too. A single ball in the middle of the table rarely (if ever) provides adequit stopping power. I suppose someone could hit the cue ball hard enough into a single ball at 8 feet to cause it but with the equal mass it would be rare and likely something would leave the table.

(#43)
skipbales
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11-27-2017, 07:36 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Neil Here's the def. I have always gone by- It is a force follow shot when the cb is forced farther down the tangent line before the follow takes over; or when it is forced farther from the rail before the follow takes over. This is accomplished simply by adding more force, or speed, to the cb. Max follow occurs at about 70% above the center of the cb. If you have the stripe horizontal, 70% is at the top of the stripe. Overspin, which is the cb rotating faster than forward momentum, dissipates almost immediately as Mike Page has shown. In BC21's video, he thinks it is showing overspin. What it is showing is that the cb will have overspin with only air friction. If one watches the video closely, one can see that the cb takes one bounce and then hits the ob while still airborne. (1:02 clearly shows it off the table at impact, which also is why the cb jumps up in the air after impact) Any time the cb is struck above center, it will have two forces acting on it. Forward momentum, and rotational momentum. Due to friction force acting on the cb from the cloth, the rotational force (or momentum) will almost immediately match the forward force and the cb will be rolling across the felt with no overspin. Immediately upon contact with the ob, some (partial hit) to all (full hit) of the forward momentum will be transferred to the ob. Only a small portion of the rotational force will be transferred. On a soft hit at an angle on the ob, the cb initially travels down the tangent line. at this point the forward force is greater than the rotational force. Due to friction on the cloth, the forward force is almost immediately gone, and then the rotational force is greater and the cb then rolls forward. On a soft hit, this happens almost immediately. The harder the hit, the farther the cb will travel down the tangent line before the cb goes forward. As the two forces become slightly in favor of the rotational force, you can see the cb start to curve or bend on it's path. Shortly after the bend, the directional force will be gone, and all that is left is rotational force. The rotational force still has a large amount of force as very little of it was lost in contact with the ob. But, at all times it is in contact with the cloth, and all that is left is rotational force, the cb will be a rolling ball. How far it travels depends on the force applied to it.
Good explanation.

(#44)
Neil
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11-27-2017, 07:38 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by skipbales That is a great video. It shows the cue ball hitting with enough force to bounce up in the air, spin like crazy then get traction and shoot forward. I think that is the action we all see in actual play. The idea that it keeps overspinning down the table without getting full traction is what I don't think happens. It is the collision which causes the overspin. Once there is traction the spin just increases the speed until there is another collision. The force follow is the idea of hitting it with enough force to cause the collision to lift the ball and allow it to free spin, kind of giving it that burning rubber effect to start. This would require pretty close proximity to the object ball which seems to also be a component of force follow. If the object all is 3/4 of a table away I don't think you can actually do a force follow, can you? I think it is just a hard hit by the time it gets there no matter how high or hard you hit the cue ball. The break shot might be an exception due to the mass of the balls being struck. Even at distance we have all seen the cue ball bounce up into the air spinning forward then drop and continue. I am less sure that a single ball can provide the resistance necessary, at distance, to provide the stopping power to develop the overspin.
For the part I put in red- The cb goes up because it was already off the table at contact and hit the ob above the equator. When the cb is airborne and rotating, it is actually losing rotational force without going anywhere. Such a ball will not travel as far as one that stayed in contact with the table.

For the other part, you can get force follow at any distance. It is not a product of overspin at all, as there is none. see my other post for the explanation.

(#45)
skipbales
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11-27-2017, 08:07 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Neil For the part I put in red- The cb goes up because it was already off the table at contact and hit the ob above the equator. When the cb is airborne and rotating, it is actually losing rotational force without going anywhere. Such a ball will not travel as far as one that stayed in contact with the table. For the other part, you can get force follow at any distance. It is not a product of overspin at all, as there is none. see my other post for the explanation.
I understand that part. It is the point of contention in this thread. I understand it is not overspinning as it rolls. Any overspin seems to be the result of the rotation continuing after the forward roll is interrupted. My question was if a single ball could provide adequate resistance to create significant overspin at distance. I know a rail or rack of balls can and maybe the definition of force follow does not need to result in any overspin?

What causes the cue ball to already be up in the air? Is it a bounce off the table from the force of the cue hitting the ball originally? Like a partial jump shot? I know the cue ball lifts slightly on most shots but not sure when and where.

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