thanks BBB
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marikian
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thanks BBB - 12-27-2017, 10:36 AM

thank you very much

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
i see scott answered your question
as i went to look back on eye pattern threads/posts
i found this great post scott lee wrote on eye patterns and quiet eyes
hope this helps
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpo...5&postcount=10
  
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DrCue'sProtege
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01-01-2018, 01:08 PM

Marikian,

The SPF instructors teach that you should look at the OB last. However, there are a lot of folks - teachers, players, pros, etc - that will tell you its okay to look at the CB last. They will tell you its PERSONAL PREFERENCE and not try and teach that looking at the OB last is the 11th Commandment.

Just my $.02.

r/DCP


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bbb
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01-01-2018, 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCue'sProtege View Post
Marikian,

The SPF instructors teach that you should look at the OB last. However, there are a lot of folks - teachers, players, pros, etc - that will tell you its okay to look at the CB last. They will tell you its PERSONAL PREFERENCE and not try and teach that looking at the OB last is the 11th Commandment.

Just my $.02.

r/DCP
you are not an instructor
and based on all the issues you still have after many years of instruction and experience
i think your advice should be taken with caution
except for specific situations like cue ball frozen to the rail
i beleive the vast majority recommend object ball last
is it the 11th commandment no but close,,jmho,,,icbw
i am not an istructor either
no offence intended
jmho
icbw

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SFC9ball
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01-02-2018, 07:56 AM

You should look at the cue ball last when:
Jacked up over a ball (TREE TOPPED)
Cue ball close or frozen to the rail
Jumping over a ball
Breaking


Jim Baker
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01-02-2018, 09:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFC9ball View Post
You should look at the cue ball last when:
Jacked up over a ball (TREE TOPPED)
Cue ball close or frozen to the rail
Jumping over a ball
Breaking
And whenever else you want to, including a regular shot, if that works best for you. And if you prefer OB last, that's fine too if that works for you. That does seem to be the majority preference.

And nope, I am not an instructor, but multiple teachers, pros, good players, etc, have made that comment. This has been an age old debate here on AZB Forums.

r/DCP


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goettlicher
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01-02-2018, 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCue'sProtege View Post
And whenever else you want to, including a regular shot, if that works best for you. And if you prefer OB last, that's fine too if that works for you. That does seem to be the majority preference.

And nope, I am not an instructor, but multiple teachers, pros, good players, etc, have made that comment. This has been an age old debate here on AZB Forums.

r/DCP
Funny thing about that debate.
Instructors are all in agreement.

randyg


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Ratta
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01-02-2018, 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by goettlicher View Post
Funny thing about that debate.
Instructors are all in agreement.

randyg
lol!


Not an attack now against you DrCue s Protege:
You can be sure, that the most here also have read, or heard this stuff from several People.
What is fact: you could also shoot blindly- with closed eyes, once you aligned perfectly for your shot. NO doubt about that.

What is also fact: Several world class pro s- also world class snooker Players would have S W O R N that they look always "cueball last" --- and with a superb high Speed cam have been "caught" that the eyes were flipping over to object ball while finally Shooting. (and that s not just a single example Buddy).

Of course there are for very sure also People who look at cueball last--- so we could use for very sure the advice: "Use what works for you best".

I can just say from my expirience that i have had til now exactly 2 People, who have been lookin cueball last-- but also These two were flipping "while" Shooting towards target (ob or rail). So even here i m unsure, if this would be cb or ob last :-)


Once you really have a really rocksolid PEP-- one thing is sure: you trust your stroke- and that s what it s all about. The very most error, why people come up during stroke is a terrible PEP....because not really trusting their stroke.

just my 2 Cents- and just from my personal expirience.

take care and happy new year




(sorry for stupid auto-correction mistakes -_- )


"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother."......Albert Einstein
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01-02-2018, 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by goettlicher View Post
Funny thing about that debate.
Instructors are all in agreement.

randyg
I don't agree with you on this Randy. 100% of Instructors don't preach and teach this.


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Scott Lee
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01-02-2018, 01:46 PM

...and when kicking, to ensure that you're extremely accurate on the CB (same reason as the other shots). Great post Jim!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFC9ball View Post
You should look at the cue ball last when:
Jacked up over a ball (TREE TOPPED)
Cue ball close or frozen to the rail
Jumping over a ball
Breaking


PBIA Master Instructor
  
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Scott Lee
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01-02-2018, 02:01 PM

Wow, Mike ...and you wonder why I won't come back and work with you again. Your "I'm right, and you're wrong" attitude is just part of the reason why you don't seem to move the needle much...over the 20+ years you've been "trying". In the end, you're correct about 'whatever works' for the player. We're just saying that OB last works better for more players than not. All we can do is try to help "open-minded" players who are struggling with improving, have 'plateaued' at a certain level (which may be quite high), or those that are inconsistent from day to day, or week to week. Nothing is an "end-all, be-all" for everyone. There are, however, certain techniques that seem to be more successful overall for many players...these are what we teach.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCue'sProtege View Post
You are 100% wrong here Randy. Absolutely.


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Scott Lee
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01-02-2018, 02:10 PM

Ingo...The bold part is the ultimate truth! To become the poolplayer you want to be...you MUST learn to have complete trust in your stroke. This includes accuracy, speed control, and the ability to repeat, under the pressure of competition!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratta View Post
Once you really have a really rock-solid PEP-- one thing is sure: you trust your stroke- and that s what it s all about. The very most error, why people come up during stroke is a terrible PEP....because not really trusting their stroke.

just my 2 Cents- and just from my personal expirience.

take care and happy new year


PBIA Master Instructor
  
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DrCue'sProtege
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01-02-2018, 02:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Lee View Post
Wow, Mike ...and you wonder why I won't come back and work with you again. Your "I'm right, and you're wrong" attitude is just part of the reason why you don't seem to move the needle much...over the 20+ years you've been "trying". In the end, you're correct about 'whatever works' for the player. We're just saying that OB last works better for more players than not. All we can do is try to help "open-minded" players who are struggling with improving, have 'plateaued' at a certain level (which may be quite high), or those that are inconsistent from day to day, or week to week. Nothing is an "end-all, be-all" for everyone. There are, however, certain techniques that seem to be more successful overall for many players...these are what we teach.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
I completely agree with what you said here Scott.

But Randy's comment was "all - ALL - instructors are in agreement" and that is simply not true. I could name names here but I am not going to start a war.

And I still want you to come back and see if you can help me. But if you are going to tell me that I:
1) HAVE to look at the OB last
2) HAVE to keep that elbow up and pinned
3) HAVE to do those Mother Drills to improve

then I agree, it would be a waste of time. Other than that, I am quite willing to listen with an open mind.

Think about it old buddy, we'd probably have a good time and some laughs together. I'll even take you back down to the amish restaurant and buy your lunch or supper.

r/Mike


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Scott Lee
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01-02-2018, 04:01 PM

Mike...To be fair, Randy was likely talking about professional instructors...not pro players who give lessons (and, as Ratta pointed out, even many pros don't really know what they do...or do something different than they think they do...but you can't fool high speed video, analyzed in slow motion or frame by frame advance). Yes, comments like "all" or "none", just like the words "always" and "never" really aren't appropriate. That said, you 'calling out' the best instructor in the USA (no offense to my friend Robin Dreyer...and he would say the same) and telling him he's "absolutely wrong" is bad form, to say the least (especially since you don't even know Randy, nor have you ever got any instruction from him).

Randy taught me one important thing more than 20 years ago. He said: "there are two kinds of students you will encounter...those that want to learn; and those that want to prove you wrong". He was correct then...and he's still correct!

Are there other things I could teach you, without adhering to the 3 points you mentioned? Certainly...a LOT of things! Would you be able to take advantage of that information (and master it to the point of being able to "bring it" on demand, under pressure, in ONE TRY)? Maybe...and that's a big maybe. No matter how unconventional a pro player's routine is...the bottom line is it's THEIR routine, and they have mastered it over years and years of using it, in every possible situation. 99.9% of us will never achieve that level of consistency, for many reasons. The last thing is finances...you'd have to commit to spending a whole day with me! Add to that, you would have exactly one day where I could come see you anytime in the next several months. That day would be Sunday, January 28, immediately after the DCC ends. I also believe we could have a good time together...as long as you don't get too down on yourself! The ball is your court buddy!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCue'sProtege View Post
I completely agree with what you said here Scott.

But Randy's comment was "all - ALL - instructors are in agreement" and that is simply not true. I could name names here but I am not going to start a war.

And I still want you to come back and see if you can help me. But if you are going to tell me that I:
1) HAVE to look at the OB last
2) HAVE to keep that elbow up and pinned
3) HAVE to do those Mother Drills to improve

then I agree, it would be a waste of time. Other than that, I am quite willing to listen with an open mind.

Think about it old buddy, we'd probably have a good time and some laughs together. I'll even take you back down to the amish restaurant and buy your lunch or supper.

r/Mike


PBIA Master Instructor

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01-03-2018, 07:48 AM

Page one, post three, Randy is very clear about this eye pattern. "Not very natural"

Maybe it's an old dog and new tricks thing. In my case yeah, I got tired of hearing Scott say "pause, pause ya gotta stop the swing. And bring it home, you have to finish.

Then about two years ago Randy gave me a whole day just on off set aiming. None of that really took. I guess I'm just a fraction guy. But the funny thing is the more I did those mother drills and really paid attention to the missing set and finish the better my stroke became. And all of a sudden the aiming took care of itself.

I'm still not where I want to be, but it's coming along. Old dogs learn slow.

Get unstuck from your ego and listen to these guys.


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01-03-2018, 01:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Lee View Post
Mike...To be fair, Randy was likely talking about professional instructors...not pro players who give lessons (and, as Ratta pointed out, even many pros don't really know what they do...or do something different than they think they do...but you can't fool high speed video, analyzed in slow motion or frame by frame advance). Yes, comments like "all" or "none", just like the words "always" and "never" really aren't appropriate. That said, you 'calling out' the best instructor in the USA (no offense to my friend Robin Dreyer...and he would say the same) and telling him he's "absolutely wrong" is bad form, to say the least (especially since you don't even know Randy, nor have you ever got any instruction from him).

Randy taught me one important thing more than 20 years ago. He said: "there are two kinds of students you will encounter...those that want to learn; and those that want to prove you wrong". He was correct then...and he's still correct!

Are there other things I could teach you, without adhering to the 3 points you mentioned? Certainly...a LOT of things! Would you be able to take advantage of that information (and master it to the point of being able to "bring it" on demand, under pressure, in ONE TRY)? Maybe...and that's a big maybe. No matter how unconventional a pro player's routine is...the bottom line is it's THEIR routine, and they have mastered it over years and years of using it, in every possible situation. 99.9% of us will never achieve that level of consistency, for many reasons. The last thing is finances...you'd have to commit to spending a whole day with me! Add to that, you would have exactly one day where I could come see you anytime in the next several months. That day would be Sunday, January 28, immediately after the DCC ends. I also believe we could have a good time together...as long as you don't get too down on yourself! The ball is your court buddy!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott,
At this point I don't feel i need you for an entire day. I think if you can help me that it wont take much more than a couple of hours. I am going to have Dave Sapolis take a look at me on video and see what he thinks and go from there. The next time you are in the Indiana area and can do the half day thing please let me know. And if you would consider doing the half day on 28 January let me know.

Thanks for your consideration.

r/Mike


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