More elbow dropping nonsense

djkx1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A whole lot easier to count how many times he doesn't, thats for sure.
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
one of my favorite videos. I'm inclined to say preventing unnecessary left/right movement is more important than preventing extra up/down. I'd love to have sigel's stroke.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Lets try another game. How many of us can shoot like Mike????????

Steve

I think pool teachers incorrectly focus on the important on a static upper arm. Nearly every pro I watch drives their arm through the shot. Not saying a static elbow is good/bad - but a dynamic elbow isn't bad 100%.

For every top pro someone shows me with a totally static elbow, I can show them 5 who launch their arm through the shot. I just don't think it matters the slightest bit. All that matters is where your tip is an inch before the CB and how it travels from there to contact.

Mike Davis SWORE to me about 8 years ago the proper pendulum point was from the shoulder because the larger muscle groups allowed for a straighter stroke (and allowing gravity to pull your stroke down straight). People might look at him like he's the Lee Trevino of the pool world, but I don't think he's as crazy as people might think.

It's not a "well, how many people play like Mike"---- it's how many GOOD players DON'T do what he does? The answer is-- a "majority" of good players drop their elbow. Therefore, I don't think it's bad form - it's standard form.
 

cuekev

Thread killer
Silver Member
I come from the no drop school but think thier are more important factors. I now believe that once you have aligned your shot it is much more important to not move your back shoulder or bridge. A relaxed stance is your foundation and your bridge hand and rear shoulder are the corner stones. I hear so much about not moving your head but it is your back shoulder that really effects the shot not the head. I find that you can stop jumping up during shots by relaxing your feet by evenly dispersing your weight on them and using your legs to balance.

just my 2 cents :smile:
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
I agree- the drop is the follow through, not before. That's normal for all good players who let their elbow go.

All I'm saying is when a majority of the good players do it--- it's not bad form.
 

pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think pool teachers incorrectly focus on the important on a static upper arm. Nearly every pro I watch drives their arm through the shot. Not saying a static elbow is good/bad - but a dynamic elbow isn't bad 100%.

For every top pro someone shows me with a totally static elbow, I can show them 5 who launch their arm through the shot. I just don't think it matters the slightest bit. All that matters is where your tip is an inch before the CB and how it travels from there to contact.

Mike Davis SWORE to me about 8 years ago the proper pendulum point was from the shoulder because the larger muscle groups allowed for a straighter stroke (and allowing gravity to pull your stroke down straight). People might look at him like he's the Lee Trevino of the pool world, but I don't think he's as crazy as people might think.

It's not a "well, how many people play like Mike"---- it's how many GOOD players DON'T do what he does? The answer is-- a "majority" of good players drop their elbow. Therefore, I don't think it's bad form - it's standard form.

I have several videos of Mizerack, who Mike used to admit in public,
was an even better 14.1 player than he was. On break shots, he often ends with his elbow down by his beltline.

All this nonsence about not moving your elbow was started by 'teachers'
who didn't understand what they were talking about.

Dale
 

Williebetmore

Member, .25% Club
Silver Member
I will disagree respectfully with all so far. I will await the publication of Mark Wilson's instructional text (I've had a look at the draft and it is amazing); but he addresses this point in depth and at length. There is NO pool book that has ever covered the subject in this depth. I doubt any could read his extremely well thought out analysis and still disagree....but I could be wrong.

For PD to say that "teachers didn't understand what they are talking about" is just flat wrong. These teachers have played at a very high level, and have analyzed this subject to a far greater depth than anyone posting here so far. I won't ruin Mark's impact by giving away his analysis; but anyone interested in this subject would do well to read his book after publication if they really want to convince me they are interested in stroke mechanics.

You might as well say that Mike's mustache is the reason for his success. He succeeds because of an incredible drive towards perfection and victory - his elbow has little to do with it in my view.

P.S..- I do NOT believe there is any good instructor who has EVER said you cannot play great pool with an elbow drop - to suggest such a thing is ridiculous. The instructors are giving advice to aspiring players who wish to achieve proficiency as rapidly as possible - a totally different situation and a totally different discussion from this.
 
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ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
Elbow drop simply means you engaged your shoulder, a socket joint, which can introduce side to side movement to your stroke. Based on what I learned, taught by a knowledgeable instructor, elbow drop after the follow through isn't an issue. So don't obsess over it. As Bruce Lee once said, Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.


Most of the drop is on the follow through.
 

PoolSharkAllen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let's play a game. The game is let's count how many times Mike Sigel drops his elbow in this video.
While we're on the subject of dropped elbows, have you noticed that Mike isn't doing the prerequisite foot work taught to every beginner? :eek: Not to mention the wide gap between the arm/elbow and the rest of his body. Mike also needs to pause more on his backstroke swing. Despite all this, Mike is one of the top players in the game. :)

Although we may all start out learning the fundamentals of the stance, grip and stroke, over time many players either forget some of the basics or make adjustments to them.
 
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Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Or maybe we DO know exactly what we're talking about, and have the scientific evidence to back it up. :rolleyes: This has been hashed and rehashed to death here. The point is this...MOST pros who have an elbow drop, move the elbow down AFTER contact with the CB. They have superb timing which allows them to still accurately contact the CB (which is the biggest argument against doing it). The vast majority of amateur players have no such ability, nor can they duplicate the pro's timing. Here's the ultimate truth...there are probably a dozen ways to skin a cat, but there are a couple that are a LOT easier to be accurate and repeatable. They both start with a sharp knife! Whether you agree or not, the truth is it's just simpler to develop an accurate and repeatable stroke WITHOUT the elbow movement (which does nothing to provide anything "extra" to the stroke). Most players wanting to improve their stroke look for a valid way to learn something repeatable and sustainable. It is hard work, but the rewards in the long run are worth it for most players who seek quality instruction.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

All this nonsence about not moving your elbow was started by 'teachers' who didn't understand what they were talking about.

Dale
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Don...A well-thought-out post, and as usual, spot on.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I will disagree respectfully with all so far. I will await the publication of Mark Wilson's instructional text (I've had a look at the draft and it is amazing); but he addresses this point in depth and at length. There is NO pool book that has ever covered the subject in this depth. I doubt any could read his extremely well thought out analysis and still disagree....but I could be wrong.

For PD to say that "teachers didn't understand what they are talking about" is just flat wrong. These teachers have played at a very high level, and have analyzed this subject to a far greater depth than anyone posting here so far. I won't ruin Mark's impact by giving away his analysis; but anyone interested in this subject would do well to read his book after publication if they really want to convince me they are interested in stroke mechanics.

You might as well say that Mike's mustache is the reason for his success. He succeeds because of an incredible drive towards perfection and victory - his elbow has little to do with it in my view.

P.S..- I do NOT believe there is any good instructor who has EVER said you cannot play great pool with an elbow drop - to suggest such a thing is ridiculous. The instructors are giving advice to aspiring players who wish to achieve proficiency as rapidly as possible - a totally different situation and a totally different discussion from this.
 

peteypooldude

I see Edges
Silver Member
I agree spidey,I have noticed the same thing.Every person is a little different in the way they execute and see shots,so I dont see where it has to be one way or another in this particular instance.Might have made a good poll .Good post I think .:wink:
 

ftgokie

D player extraordinaire
Silver Member
Im gonna be learning 14.1 probably starting this week :embarrassed2:

I think it doesnt matter what you do or how you do it, its the end result.....Lots of good players that I have seen that when I see it, I am like , How in the HELL does he shoot like that...but, end results are, they pocket their ball......so to me, I dont really think it matters for a Pro type player.....

But for someone starting out...I believe you should get the basics down.....then shoot however you feel comfortable with........I dont know though, maybe I am wrong......I will definately find out
 

Wolven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Max Eberle in his video “Powerful Pool” addresses the stance and the stroke for a few hours.
Excellent inside on elbow drop and body mechanics in general addressing the shoulder and elbow.
This is by far most comprehensive look at the subject I have ever seen.

He makes a distinction between a forced elbow drop which is result of a faulty stance and a natural elbow drop.

2 basic strokes are shown, one without elbow drop for use on shorter shots and one with elbow drop for more power, distance.
Furthermore, he shows 2 basic grip hand motions during the stroke. You will find more than that going through the video.

Max’s video is really great.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Or maybe we DO know exactly what we're talking about, and have the scientific evidence to back it up. :rolleyes: This has been hashed and rehashed to death here. The point is this...MOST pros who have an elbow drop, move the elbow down AFTER contact with the CB. They have superb timing which allows them to still accurately contact the CB (which is the biggest argument against doing it). The vast majority of amateur players have no such ability, nor can they duplicate the pro's timing. Here's the ultimate truth...there are probably a dozen ways to skin a cat, but there are a couple that are a LOT easier to be accurate and repeatable. They both start with a sharp knife! Whether you agree or not, the truth is it's just simpler to develop an accurate and repeatable stroke WITHOUT the elbow movement (which does nothing to provide anything "extra" to the stroke). Most players wanting to improve their stroke look for a valid way to learn something repeatable and sustainable. It is hard work, but the rewards in the long run are worth it for most players who seek quality instruction.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Why do those who drop their elbow after contact require better timing than those who don't? The ball's already gone. I keep hearing the contact time is 1/1000 of a second. After contact, who cares if you do triple step, rock step and dip your opponent while listening to swing music?

I don't think timing is even a factor for these players--- they're rock solid upon impact. If you watch a great player who drops their elbow and a great player who doesn't - they look nearly identical until the ball begins its initial movement. After that occurs, I'm lost as to why any form is proper or not--- the ball has already vamosed a la playa.

I've watched myself play on video a lot. I drop my elbow on longer shots that require speed. It's a natural motion for me and bringing my hand to my chest feels limiting. I can do nearly anything with the CB I want to do--- make any shot--- and I wouldn't say I have any better timing than the next guy.

OH and by the way....

I figured I'd start an instigating thread just because I'm snowed in and bored out of my mind. I just got done shoveling nearly 3' of snow in front of my house which took me almost 3 hours. This is fun to read.
 
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