Is it time for a new TOI thread?

AuntyDan said:

The site's built-in search is somewhat limited. I find it easier to search AZB using Google and the "site:" parameter like this:

toi site:forums.azbilliards.com

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AtLarge said:

Here are my current thoughts on CJ’s Touch of Inside.

[Caveat – I have not yet viewed CJ’s TOI video. But he has discussed TOI at length on AzB.]

I feel that CJ has actually been talking about two different methods, or two versions of the method, both of which he has called TOI. (This may have caused some confusion.) I’ll call them TOI1 and TOI2.

TOI1

The Method -- For several months, CJ described TOI as, essentially, the following. Aim the OB to the full side (thick-hit side, under-cut side) of the pocket. Then, instead of aligning the stick through the center of the CB on the path that would create that slightly too-thick cut, move the stick parallel to that line and slightly inside (toward the pocket). Stroke the CB from that alignment. This will create a small amount of CB deflection (squirt/”veer”) and send the CB into a slightly thinner hit on the OB, which is intended to send the OB into the center of the pocket instead of the originally targeted full side of the pocket. The method would be used for all shots except those that are straight and those for which you want to change the angle of the CB off the cushion.

Comments – The TOI1 technique is based on two key factors – (1) some aiming method (indeed, any aiming method the player chooses) for initially targeting the full side of the pocket and (2) a small offset of the tip from center CB to create the additional amount of angle to put the OB in the center of the pocket. In a couple of places, CJ even put a number on this “touch” as being about 1/8 of a tip.

Although success with TOI1 depends on coordinating many factors – including cue speed, cue angle to table, and shaft deflection characteristics -- I believe most decent players could learn to use TOI1 effectively if they see advantages for their own game in using a more consistent stroke speed and in achieving a different way of moving the CB around the table – a way with more natural angles of the CB off the cushions because of the reduced spin on the CB after it collides with the OB (a “floating” CB, as CJ calls it).​

TOI2

The Method – About three months ago CJ began describing TOI differently, as follows. First, align or sight from the center of the CB to either the center of the OB (CTC) or the outside edge of the OB (CTE). For most shots, CTC is used for cuts up to about 30 degrees and CTE is used for thinner cuts. Then move the cue stick to the inside, keeping it parallel to that initial alignment line. The amount the stick/tip moves inside is whatever amount is needed to create enough CB deflection to achieve the proper hit on the OB to send it into the pocket. This could be a small amount of offset from center for angles close to zero with an initial CTC alignment or for angles close to 30 degrees with an initial CTE alignment. Or it could be a much larger offset to the inside for angles closer to 30 degrees using CTC or for thin cuts using CTE. [Note – I think CJ uses CTC for all cut angles if CB and OB are far apart and CTE for most cut angles if CB and OB are quite close together.)

Comments – TOI2 seems to go right to center-pocket thinking rather than first going inside enough for full-side pocketing and then adding a little more inside to take the cut to center pocket. The amount of inside offset needed for TOI2 can be much more than a little. It may be all the way to the miscue limit to create enough angle for some shots. The miscue limit is at about half the ball’s radius, or 9/16” from center. So TOI2 is a method that requires the development of an enormous amount of “feel” to hit the CB in exactly the right spot in that zone of just a little over half an inch (or less if you aren’t on the equator) to the inside from center CB to make shots at all the possible different angles from all the possible different CB/OB separations. Also, TOI2 often results in lots of spin on the CB, even after contact with the OB, with the CB checking or reversing off the first cushion rather than floating with natural in/out angles. I wonder whether any but a handful of players will be able to develop the feel to take this rather idiosyncratic method to a high level.​

When people report their experiences with TOI, or thoughts about TOI, I think it would be helpful to the readers to know whether they are talking about TOI1 or TOI2.

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Vorpal Cue said:

Thanks for the inks. Going through them, there's a good post that describes the technique(s). There seems to be two ways to use TOI, something I wasn't aware of.

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Nine ... corner said:

I was revisiting my copy of Advance Pool by George Fels wherein he extols the virtues of inside English. Fels credits Ralph Greenleaf who he states that the use of inside English was one of his great secrets. He then launches into a treatise of the value of using inside English even when it doesn't appear on the surface to be the best course of action. He (Fels) then expounds on nine potential advantages of using inside. Interesting and enlightening stuff from a master. I find it valuable to revisit works from the most knowledgeable. :thumbup:

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CJ Wiley said:

Yes, no matter how you choose to play it's essential to hit the cue ball straight, and to do that you must have a dependable stroke. Even more than just a dependable stroke it's also important to have a consistent pre shot routine that addresses every aspect of the shooting position AS YOU GO DOWN ON THE SHOT.

Some players don't "real eyes" why they are inconsistent because they really do have a straight stroke. The issue can be the alignment of the left side of the body, and that side is controlled by the positioning of the left foot (for right handed players). I connect the left foot exactly parallel to the TOI line established by the line of my cue. This means I can actually AIM with my left foot and target a particular part of the pocket.

The TOI enables the player to consistently remove the "Under Cut" miss from their games so they can create a pocket zone that starts at the "Inside" of the pocket and has 3 Parts to it (The 3 Part Pocket System)......using center you can only have 2, this creates a BIG advantage when you have essentially 25% more pocket to target. 'The Game is the Teacher'

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Vorpal Cue said:

C.J. Wiley suggests an initial body alignment of CTC or CTE as you approach the shot. Then you adjust your aim for the thick side of the pocket and place your left foot parallel to the shot line before getting down on the shot. Maybe TOI 2 is just a misunderstanding of his technique. After all, it would take a LOT of deflection to change a half ball hit to a 80* cut.

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AtLarge said:

[PS -- If the CB and OB have a lot of distance between them, it's pretty easy to convert a center-to-edge (half-ball) body/sight alignment, or even a center-to-center alignment, into an extremely thin cut on the OB using inside. But, for me, getting just the right amount of squirt isn't so easy.]

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