Mechanics... Diomond Tables

chalkdust

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it just me or do these tables SUCK to work on??? They are great to play on but...

PS.. Found two more 9 foters with Artemis Intercontinantel #66 flat side up (canvas on top). I have pics on phone, don't know how to post them.
 

Donny Wessels

New member
Silver Member
Is it just me or do these tables SUCK to work on??? They are great to play on but...

PS.. Found two more 9 foters with Artemis Intercontinantel #66 flat side up (canvas on top). I have pics on phone, don't know how to post them.

thats how they should be installed
 

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
Is it just me or do these tables SUCK to work on??? They are great to play on but...

What is it that sucks about working on a Diamond?
(fair warning: dont shoot at your own foot, there are potential customers reading this)


PS.. Found two more 9 foters with Artemis Intercontinantel #66 flat side up (canvas on top). I have pics on phone, don't know how to post them.

No offense but we've tried to explain this issue a few times already:
For an American pocket table, assuming that your subrail height and angle is correct first, you would install the Intercontinental cushion with the canvas facing up.

................
 

chalkdust

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
................

I would like to state the Diamond tables are the BEST on todays market, they play great and are very well built. They are however not mechanic friendly tables to work on. The rail/apron assebly is just about imposible for one person to deal with. The bevel on the rail top for the pockets does not have room for staples at the top part of pocket faceing on the back side and the pocket screws are a pain.

Mr. Bond, with your Chicago Billiard Museum background I find it hard to believe that you have not seen your share of antique carom tables. Carom rubber went canvas side down, I have done my homework. Artemis intercontinental #66 IS carom rubber sold in tne foot lenghts and the canvas IS on the flat side (bottom). Look at the pics... First pic showes no canvas on round side (top), can not see bottom. The second pic showes the canvas on the round side (top), Did they make a change?
My first observation is the one rail bank on used cloth, when hit with a FIRM stroke they bank a half diamond short. The second observation is on a table that has a weekly break contest. This three ball break is racked with all three in line, there is a large hole in the bed cloth where the back ball strikes the rail hard. I believe the balls are being traped between the bed and the round side of the rubber and causeing these issues.
Please spend a minute and check this out, if you have some 66 in stock look at it, the canvas is on the flat side
We do awesome antique resterations and great service work (Indy pool players want us to do their work) Again... Please take a look at this...

One more note, we will be on a road trip your way and would love to check out your museum and hope to meet you... We WILL be in tuch..
 

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Club Billiards

Absolute Billiard Service
Silver Member
Is it just me or do these tables SUCK to work on??? They are great to play on but...

PS.. Found two more 9 foters with Artemis Intercontinantel #66 flat side up (canvas on top). I have pics on phone, don't know how to post them.

I'm assuming from your description you're talking about the Diamond Professionals, and I think they are GREAT to work on. In my opinion, they are the best designed tables I've seen. GC1 blinds are also a royal pain for one guy to put up at times. Hell, some of them are a pain if you've got 3 guys! Most table brands and models have their issues and pros/cons. The thing I like about Diamonds though...there's not much wiggle room. If you get the table together, there's a much better chance you've got it together right. Furniture table rails and even frames don't have to go together square. Have you ever worked on an ATI? Absolute nightmare if you don't have that frame perfectly square, because sometimes you might not notice until you're done and trying to bolt the rails on and they won't line up. That's a mistake you'll make ONCE. My point is, I love the way the Diamond rails go together. All of those extra pieces help to ensure those rails and blinds are tight, the look is clean, and the rails are square. Oh and the pocket screws aren't bad as long as you take a second to make sure they're started straight before firing them in, but you should be don't that with any hardware.

My only complaint on the Professionals is the screws that come with the table to attach the leather pocket tabs to the bottom of the frame don't need to be that long. I don't run mine up all the way, but I've worked on way too many that have been and they bottom out on the bottom side of the slate and split apart the backing in the pocket area.

By the way, yes, installing Intercontinental 66 on a pocket pool table, the canvas side goes up, and the logo goes on the bottom side facing in toward the play area.
 

chalkdust

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks...

I'm assuming from your description you're talking about the Diamond Professionals, and I think they are GREAT to work on. In my opinion, they are the best designed tables I've seen. GC1 blinds are also a royal pain for one guy to put up at times. Hell, some of them are a pain if you've got 3 guys! Most table brands and models have their issues and pros/cons. The thing I like about Diamonds though...there's not much wiggle room. If you get the table together, there's a much better chance you've got it together right. Furniture table rails and even frames don't have to go together square. Have you ever worked on an ATI? Absolute nightmare if you don't have that frame perfectly square, because sometimes you might not notice until you're done and trying to bolt the rails on and they won't line up. That's a mistake you'll make ONCE. My point is, I love the way the Diamond rails go together. All of those extra pieces help to ensure those rails and blinds are tight, the look is clean, and the rails are square. Oh and the pocket screws aren't bad as long as you take a second to make sure they're started straight before firing them in, but you should be don't that with any hardware.

My only complaint on the Professionals is the screws that come with the table to attach the leather pocket tabs to the bottom of the frame don't need to be that long. I don't run mine up all the way, but I've worked on way too many that have been and they bottom out on the bottom side of the slate and split apart the backing in the pocket area.

By the way, yes, installing Intercontinental 66 on a pocket pool table, the canvas side goes up, and the logo goes on the bottom side facing in toward the play area.


THanks for your input... Sorry I'm old GC guy and I hear the new GCs are harder.

I'm so glad YOU bit on my post about the rubber. Don't fall for because "they" say so, check it out... You do pool rooms, you know where one like this is, go feel that rubber with the round side on the bottom. You play? Try some good stiff cross sides, see how short they are.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Its not the cushions that is causing the problem you're talking about, it's the sub-rails the cushions are mounted to that is the problem.
 

chalkdust

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Glad to hear from you...

Its not the cushions that is causing the problem you're talking about, it's the sub-rails the cushions are mounted to that is the problem.

This a quote from the Mueller web site...

This super fast and accurate cushion rubber will give you years of quality play and service. They are full gum-rubber, Premium-grade cushion quality unlike extruded rubber which has fillers added. Measures 1 1/4" x 1 5/16". Check measurements to order correct size. Six piece set. 48" per piece. Control fabric on the back and underside. Made in Germany.



Four of these tables are 9 foot Diamonds with factory instaled rubber. Intercontinental #66 will instal canvas up or canvas down with little (if any) change in rail height.
I'll offer you the same challenge as my last post... Go try some stiff cross sides on some older cloth with #66 on it, bet they play short.I am aware of rail calibration and this not the issue, check it out.

THanks for your time... David
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
This a quote from the Mueller web site...

This super fast and accurate cushion rubber will give you years of quality play and service. They are full gum-rubber, Premium-grade cushion quality unlike extruded rubber which has fillers added. Measures 1 1/4" x 1 5/16". Check measurements to order correct size. Six piece set. 48" per piece. Control fabric on the back and underside. Made in Germany.



Four of these tables are 9 foot Diamonds with factory instaled rubber. Intercontinental #66 will instal canvas up or canvas down with little (if any) change in rail height.
I'll offer you the same challenge as my last post... Go try some stiff cross sides on some older cloth with #66 on it, bet they play short.I am aware of rail calibration and this not the issue, check it out.

THanks for your time... David

First, how old are the Diamond's you're refering to? Second, yes the rails make a big difference in how the balls react off the cushions. You must not know know who I am if you're going to issue me a challenge as to how the Artemis cushions play...I'm very well aware of how they play, and if the sub-rails are correct...they don't bank short, and for "Stiff" cross side banks, all pool cushions are going to pull up short because the more the object ball is compressed into the cushion, the more the reaction angle is going to be changed...meaning hard banks...bank shorter, softer banks...bank longer.
 

Cuephoric

1hole anyone?
Silver Member
I don't know about Diomonds, but I work on Diamonds (and pretty much everything else I do) solo all the time-so does Glen, Mark, Rob, and probably quite a few others on here. you learn the tricks to getting around the table and making it easier on yourself to start and put back together. Although it is alot easier if you have two people just for flipping the rails over if you don't want to take them apart. Once you see why they did what they did in the design, you learn to appreciate them alot more. I wish more tables were built that way to be honest with you. There'd be alot less work repairing blown out rails from pockets, rails would be lined up, table levels would be better, and people would be happier all around- especially since most hacks and installers can't figure out how to do a Diamond so pass on the job ;). I agree with Josh- the design really is great, and is almost TOO simplified in what you have to do. The Pros may need more to get done than the ProAm or Smart tables, but if you can do a Gold Crown, you can do a Pro.
As for the rubber..... I'm kind of a fence straddler on that one. And as usual- Mr. Bond is correct. I've seen the results from both sides, and have had good results with both. And have heard from other Mechs thoughts on the subject as well- with same results. Depending upon the table they are going on.But I've never seen one from the factory done differently than cloth side up.
The newer gold crowns may take longer out of the box, but are sure easy to deal with after they have been set up correctly. (Although I'm still amazed at the amount of 4s and 5's I've seen with wood shims all over the place. Especially in S.TX- and NW LA. Maybe that should be a new thread as well.
 

chalkdust

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Diamond & Artemis

I would like to thank ALL who have offered their opinions on my AI # 66 question. I have sent an e-mail to Artemis in Germany to ask this very question, inquireing mindes (mine) want to know. If they reply I will post info.
I have been out of the service game for a long time and found the Diamond to be a bit of a pain. Day two and three went much better and find I don't hate them as bad as I thought at first. I am however not a fan of the barrel fasteners for bail bolts, I know everybody is useing them. All it takes is one hackanic with more muscle than brains to pull these out of the rail. Does anyone make an oversized barrel with the 3/8 bolt hole for repairs??? The tables we worked on were "tournament used" smart tables instaled by Diamond guys, 95% of the leveling shims were not in play at all.Do these come loose from vibration, or did the installers just fail?

Note for Glen...

Maybe "challenge" was the wrong word to use. The point I'm trying to make is, what is a normal hold on a one rail bank falls a half diamond shorter. I was just asking you to give it a try. These 9 footers are newer smart tables.


Thanks again for your time, I just want to be the best I can be...

Dave
 

dannylee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This a quote from the Mueller web site...

This super fast and accurate cushion rubber will give you years of quality play and service. They are full gum-rubber, Premium-grade cushion quality unlike extruded rubber which has fillers added. Measures 1 1/4" x 1 5/16". Check measurements to order correct size. Six piece set. 48" per piece. Control fabric on the back and underside. Made in Germany.


I still don't see where it says Back and Underside...

Quote from :
http://www.muellers.com/48-Artemis-Pool-No-66-Rubber--Setand6,630.html


I read "Control fabric on the top and back."

I think I was looking at a different cushion sorry for my ignorance.

I will let the pro's chime in, interesting topic. I wonder how much of a difference it would make.
 
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chalkdust

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I still don't see where it says Back and Underside...

Quote from :
http://www.muellers.com/48-Artemis-Pool-No-66-Rubber--Setand6,630.html


I read "Control fabric on the top and back."

I think I was looking at a different cushion sorry for my ignorance.

I will let the pro's chime in, interesting topic. I wonder how much of a difference it would make.

This link is for "Artemis POOL No. 66" (K 66) not Intercontinental No. 66. If you go back to this link look under rubber cushions they are calling it "Intercontinental Pool No. 66" "fabric on bottom"
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
This link is for "Artemis POOL No. 66" (K 66) not Intercontinental No. 66. If you go back to this link look under rubber cushions they are calling it "Intercontinental Pool No. 66" "fabric on bottom"

Let me try and explain the Artemis cushions, maybe you'll have a little better understanding of the control canvas. When Brunswick built their billiards tables, they didn't come out with a new billiard billiard cushion to use, instead they turned their K55 pool cushions upside down so that 2 things happened, 1 being the nose height was higher, and 2 the cushions would bank better when playing 3C because the canvas control strip when mounted canvas up, would stiffen the banks, but mounted canvas down it would allow the 3C balls to bank truer because the balls.wouldn't stiffen off the banks nearly as much because the cushions played softer. So, the Artemis Intercontinental no. 66, which is a K55 profile being used for "pool" and "straight rail billiards" is mounted control canvas up, but just like a lot of table mechanics out there, as well as billiard retail stores, they also swear by the fact that Accufast cushions and K66 profile cushions will not only fit, soppose to be, and will play perfect on a Brunswick or Diamond, and to that all I can say, is that they wouldn't know the differece between their ass...and a hole in the ground!;)

Glen
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I would like to state the Diamond tables are the BEST on todays market, they play great and are very well built. They are however not mechanic friendly tables to work on. The rail/apron assebly is just about imposible for one person to deal with. The bevel on the rail top for the pockets does not have room for staples at the top part of pocket faceing on the back side and the pocket screws are a pain.

Mr. Bond, with your Chicago Billiard Museum background I find it hard to believe that you have not seen your share of antique carom tables. Carom rubber went canvas side down, I have done my homework. Artemis intercontinental #66 IS carom rubber sold in tne foot lenghts and the canvas IS on the flat side (bottom). Look at the pics... First pic showes no canvas on round side (top), can not see bottom. The second pic showes the canvas on the round side (top), Did they make a change?
My first observation is the one rail bank on used cloth, when hit with a FIRM stroke they bank a half diamond short. The second observation is on a table that has a weekly break contest. This three ball break is racked with all three in line, there is a large hole in the bed cloth where the back ball strikes the rail hard. I believe the balls are being traped between the bed and the round side of the rubber and causeing these issues.
Please spend a minute and check this out, if you have some 66 in stock look at it, the canvas is on the flat side
We do awesome antique resterations and great service work (Indy pool players want us to do their work) Again... Please take a look at this...

One more note, we will be on a road trip your way and would love to check out your museum and hope to meet you... We WILL be in tuch..

Both pictures are of the same Artemis Intercontinental cushions, only the top picture is showing the cushion upside down...does that clear it up for you?
 

dannylee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let me try and explain the Artemis cushions, maybe you'll have a little better understanding of the control canvas. When Brunswick built their billiards tables, they didn't come out with a new billiard billiard cushion to use, instead they turned their K55 pool cushions upside down so that 2 things happened, 1 being the nose height was higher, and 2 the cushions would bank better when playing 3C because the canvas control strip when mounted canvas up, would stiffen the banks, but mounted canvas down it would allow the 3C balls to bank truer because the balls.wouldn't stiffen off the banks nearly as much because the cushions played softer. So, the Artemis Intercontinental no. 66, which is a K55 profile being used for "pool" and "straight rail billiards" is mounted control canvas up, but just like a lot of table mechanics out there, as well as billiard retail stores, they also swear by the fact that Accufast cushions and K66 profile cushions will not only fit, soppose to be, and will play perfect on a Brunswick or Diamond, and to that all I can say, is that they wouldn't know the differece between their ass...and a hole in the ground!;)

Glen

Thanks for the info, that makes a lot of sense. -
 

chalkdust

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let me try and explain the Artemis cushions, maybe you'll have a little better understanding of the control canvas. When Brunswick built their billiards tables, they didn't come out with a new billiard billiard cushion to use, instead they turned their K55 pool cushions upside down so that 2 things happened, 1 being the nose height was higher, and 2 the cushions would bank better when playing 3C because the canvas control strip when mounted canvas up, would stiffen the banks, but mounted canvas down it would allow the 3C balls to bank truer because the balls.wouldn't stiffen off the banks nearly as much because the cushions played softer. So, the Artemis Intercontinental no. 66, which is a K55 profile being used for "pool" and "straight rail billiards" is mounted control canvas up, but just like a lot of table mechanics out there, as well as billiard retail stores, they also swear by the fact that Accufast cushions and K66 profile cushions will not only fit, soppose to be, and will play perfect on a Brunswick or Diamond, and to that all I can say, is that they wouldn't know the differece between their ass...and a hole in the ground!;)

Glen

Okay....

Billiard tables were around WAY before pool tables.

K55 installed canvas up or down has the same rail height.

I was wrong about GCs 1s & 2s, they came with a k66 profile, if K55 is installed on them without changeing the angle of the subrail they will play long. I have made this mistake in the past.

http://www.muellers.com/Rubber-Cushions.html

This is the link to the Mueller web site check it out, click on the products and read the discriptions.

Cat.#36-218 48"Artemis Intercontinental Pool #66/ fabric strip on back and underside.

Cat.# 36-228 Artemis Pool #66 Rubber (K66) fabric strip on back and top.

Cat.# 36-318 118" Artemis Intercontinental #66 Carom Rubber/ fabric strip on back and underside.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
chalkdust; This is the link to the Mueller web site check it out said:
And what I've been trying to say all along, is their web site has the wrong information, the way they're describing the Artemis is upside down.
 
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