APA Rules Question - Intentional Forfeit

WillyCornbread

Break and One
Silver Member
Hi - I can't find this information anywhere, so I'm hoping someone can enlighten me.

What is the rule about intentional forfeits in 9 ball. Example is I have a player available but don't want to risk him going up right before playoffs and take a forfeit for the match rather than play him.

Any sportsmanship rules or rules in general that prohibit or punish this?

Thank you,

b
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Hi - I can't find this information anywhere, so I'm hoping someone can enlighten me.

What is the rule about intentional forfeits in 9 ball. Example is I have a player available but don't want to risk him going up right before playoffs and take a forfeit for the match rather than play him.

Any sportsmanship rules or rules in general that prohibit or punish this?

Thank you,

b

You lose the match 15-0.
 

WoodyMPW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Edit: Read that wrong.

You do what every good APA captain does. Tell him to sandbag it.
 

WillyCornbread

Break and One
Silver Member
Edit: Read that wrong.

You do what every good APA captain does. Tell him to sandbag it.

lol.. Believe it or not I won't do that, I don't want anyone on my team(s) sandbagging or dumping games. I manage the handicaps by using all timeouts, playing time as well as matchups.

Doesn't really work as well as sandbagging, but I can sleep at night ;)

b
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi - I can't find this information anywhere, so I'm hoping someone can enlighten me.

What is the rule about intentional forfeits in 9 ball. Example is I have a player available but don't want to risk him going up right before playoffs and take a forfeit for the match rather than play him.

Any sportsmanship rules or rules in general that prohibit or punish this?

Thank you,

b

I'm a bit confused about APA stuff, how is playing a match before playoffs bad? There is no way one match in a season or seasons will move a player enough to change skill ratings. And if it can, that is a horrible system.
 

captainjko

Kirk
Silver Member
If you take a forfeit to keep your player from going up in rank, that is SANDBAGGING. Let them play and take what happens.
 

Tom1234

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm a bit confused about APA stuff, how is playing a match before playoffs bad? There is no way one match in a season or seasons will move a player enough to change skill ratings. And if it can, that is a horrible system.
I've seen people lose ONE!!! match and GO UP one handicap level!!!!! The APA hcp system overall is a farce.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lol.. Believe it or not I won't do that, I don't want anyone on my team(s) sandbagging or dumping games. I manage the handicaps by using all timeouts, playing time as well as matchups.

Doesn't really work as well as sandbagging, but I can sleep at night ;)

b

So you don't plan on winning anything then ,,



1
 

PoppaSaun

Banned
I'm a bit confused about APA stuff, how is playing a match before playoffs bad? There is no way one match in a season or seasons will move a player enough to change skill ratings. And if it can, that is a horrible system.

It can. APA rating is based mostly on a person's wins, and more recent wins have more weight than older wins.

Of course it's a horrible system. That is why people bash it.
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
Unless there is some local rule saying otherwise you'd need the first rack of the first
game to break, then you could forfeit and you lose 15 - 0.

A sportsmanship violation is a dicey thing and usually you would get a warning first, but
I wonder if a forfeit is really what you want to do
.
I'm guessing your guy is a 4 or 5? just have them play a stronger player, someone they
have a better than average chance of losing to.

But keep in mind that winning or losing one match by itself won't make a difference. Your
player's S/L is a cumulative score of his best 10 of his last 20 matches.

Losing or forfeiting may drop the one match that's keeping him where he is and add in a
match that might push him over the edge. Unless you've kept track and can apply the super
top secret and well guarded scoring system it's difficult to say just where he is. That's why it's
best to just have him play.

If you feel like you need to manage his skill level then you should try
to create the match up you need to do just that.
 

ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
The APA Equalizer system counts win/losses, safeties, innings and other factors that you record on the scoresheet. Not marking and keeping accurate count paints a less accurate picture of the player.

You could have a player who won his last 9 matches as a 4 (4.9) playing another 5 (5.1), loss the match hill-hill, but because every match lasted only 1-2 inning, be raised.

If the APA handicap system was a complete farce, any accumulated structural flaws should have broken the system down years ago.

I've seen people lose ONE!!! match and GO UP one handicap level!!!!! The APA hcp system overall is a farce.
 
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WillyCornbread

Break and One
Silver Member
Unless there is some local rule saying otherwise you'd need the first rack of the first
game to break, then you could forfeit and you lose 15 - 0.

A sportsmanship violation is a dicey thing and usually you would get a warning first, but
I wonder if a forfeit is really what you want to do
.
I'm guessing your guy is a 4 or 5? just have them play a stronger player, someone they
have a better than average chance of losing to.

But keep in mind that winning or losing one match by itself won't make a difference. Your
player's S/L is a cumulative score of his best 10 of his last 20 matches.

Losing or forfeiting may drop the one match that's keeping him where he is and add in a
match that might push him over the edge. Unless you've kept track and can apply the super
top secret and well guarded scoring system it's difficult to say just where he is. That's why it's
best to just have him play.

If you feel like you need to manage his skill level then you should try
to create the match up you need to do just that.

Great advice, I have a four that has only lost 2 matches in 2 sessions coming in second in the MVP rankings and somehow hasn't gone up. I'm sure he's a hair away from the cutover to a 5, and it's inevitable - but I'd prefer to get one playoff match in with him still as a four.

I'm concerned that any win at all will move him up, but I don't want anyone to dump games - you could say it's sandbagging, but I guess it's a compromise I can live with...
 

Toxictom

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'd like to know how APA goes about assigning skill levels in detail. I am unclear whether it is the local league operator who assigns the skill level (SL) or do they simply plug the number from a match into the computer and some algorithm decides what the SL should be. Last week I played in an APA doubles tournament with a girl that I thought was a SL-2 because that is what she was rated the prior week. She did not play that week and was moved up to a SL-3. Can anyone explain how she moved up from a SL-2 one week to a 3 two weeks later without playing any additional matches?
 

PoppaSaun

Banned
I'd like to know how APA goes about assigning skill levels in detail. I am unclear whether it is the local league operator who assigns the skill level (SL) or do they simply plug the number from a match into the computer and some algorithm decides what the SL should be. Last week I played in an APA doubles tournament with a girl that I thought was a SL-2 because that is what she was rated the prior week. She did not play that week and was moved up to a SL-3. Can anyone explain how she moved up from a SL-2 one week to a 3 two weeks later without playing any additional matches?

There is a formula in a computer. They call it the 'Equalizer'.

She moved up because results were entered. The LO may have been a week or two behind in reporting results.
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
Great advice, I have a four that has only lost 2 matches in 2 sessions coming in second in the MVP rankings and somehow hasn't gone up. I'm sure he's a hair away from the cutover to a 5, and it's inevitable - but I'd prefer to get one playoff match in with him still as a four.

I'm concerned that any win at all will move him up, but I don't want anyone to dump games - you could say it's sandbagging, but I guess it's a compromise I can live with...

Figure that those losses don't even really count in his S/L calculating. he may be as
close and you may be right. If he continues to win he will go up at some point, it's the
natural order. If he's played the requisite number of innings vs. safes on average per game
and has been consistent I'd guess he's in no real danger of going up but he is inching
closer and closer to the next S/L, but if he's the type that really wants to get better and
tries to and shows improvement each time out, with a record like that he's probably
pretty close. Just keep in mind that it will happen. Far better to happen here than in
cities or Las Vegas
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Anything done with the goal of affecting or managing a player's skill level is manipulation. The only thing you can do is not help them improve.

If you think your player is better than their number, and do things like not play them to keep them from demonstrating that ability, it is manipulation. If you play them with the hope that they will get destroyed by a far superior player, it is manipulation as you are trying to manipulate the data in the system. Sometimes you can't avoid a match up with a world-beater, and in those cases you are not manipulating, but if you're actually setting your player up to take a big loss, you're cheating. If you play them against a better player to see how they will do, it's not manipulation - you don't know what the outcome will be, and that information is useful to us, too.

Many LO's distinguish in their bylaws the difference between a forfeit and a concession. If you have a player available to play who doesn't put you in jeopardy of breaking the 23 rule, but you choose not to play them, it is a concession and could be a sportsmanship issue (depending on the reason, like not wanting to give up more than the 15 forfeit points to your opponent, or not wanting your player's skill level to change, or not wanting to affect their MVP standing). It also could result in a different score than the standard forfeit. You are depriving someone on the other team of the opportunity to play a match, so you better have a good reason.
 

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The APA rating system is horribly flawed in so many ways. Trying to out think a horribly flawed system is like two monkeys trying to screw a football. Just play the guy and move on. Doing anything else simply isn't worth it.
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
The APA rating system is horribly flawed in so many ways. Trying to out think a horribly flawed system is like two monkeys trying to screw a football. Just play the guy and move on. Doing anything else simply isn't worth it.

I don't think the system is flawed, that is to say - any system is flawed, but what is really
flawed are the score keepers and the players that worry about it.
If who ever was keeping score did so 100% honestly and 100% accurately the ranking
system would work exactly like it should. But the fact is that people keep score and
people are fundamentally flawed. As well, if players just played and didn't worry about it
the ranking system would pretty much take care of itself. The flaws lye with the humans,
not with the system
 

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think the system is flawed, that is to say - any system is flawed, but what is really
flawed are the score keepers and the players that worry about it.
If who ever was keeping score did so 100% honestly and 100% accurately the ranking
system would work exactly like it should. But the fact is that people keep score and
people are fundamentally flawed. As well, if players just played and didn't worry about it
the ranking system would pretty much take care of itself. The flaws lye with the humans,
not with the system

The players are part of the system. When you create a system that requires so much close attention be paid and so much subjectivity, it's flawed. I would venture to say more than 75% of APA players have no clue how to properly score a defensive shot per APA guidelines. Or the two drunken score keepers lose track of innings. And all of that doesn't account for all the sandbagging, cheating and other crap that goes on. The system is horribly flawed.
 
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