Are You A History Buff?
- Thread starter Mr. Bond
- Start date
H Collender and Michael Phelan....early builders of billiard tables;;;;and members of their families
It would be nice to have the column headers.
The 4th column is age, the 5th column gender.
Collender 39, had a younger wife and three young children. (I take William's age to be 1/2 of a year. The household had two Irish servant women.
Phelan was 42 and his wife Ann was 39. They seem to have three children of which George was employed as a clerk (presumably in the company). Bridget is their Irish servant woman. Tobias is the butler, I guess.
I assume columns 8 and 9 are value in dollars of property, perhaps land and building or home and company.
The 4th column is age, the 5th column gender.
Collender 39, had a younger wife and three young children. (I take William's age to be 1/2 of a year. The household had two Irish servant women.
Phelan was 42 and his wife Ann was 39. They seem to have three children of which George was employed as a clerk (presumably in the company). Bridget is their Irish servant woman. Tobias is the butler, I guess.
I assume columns 8 and 9 are value in dollars of property, perhaps land and building or home and company.
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Great hand writing.
And a lot of dead people.
And a lot of dead people.
You mean you dont have the columns memorized yet?
(kidding lol )L to R
[1-Dwelling #(address)]
[2-Order of visit #]
[3-name of everyone in abode as of June 1]
[4-Age]
[5-Sex]
[6-Color]
[7- profession/occupation (everyone over 15)]
[8-Value of real estate]
[9-Value of personal estate]
[10-Place of birth]
[11-married within the year]
[12-attended school within the year]
[13-persons over 20 who cannot read and write]
[14-deaf, dumb, blind, insane, idiotic, pauper or convict]
On the census record we can see all the usual details, like their location, ages, family members etc, but there are also some 'not so obvious' details as well....
Phelan and Collender were not just business partners, but also neighbors, AND, Mr. Phelan just happened to be Collender's father-in-law, as Collender had married his oldest daughter Julia.
But dont let the term "oldest daughter" mislead you lol. As you can see on the census, Julia is now 22 and has a 5 year old son, which would indicate her getting married (in 1854) at about 16 years old.
My how the times have changed. lol
Phelan's house is an interesting place too...consider the unknown " Gentlemen" living in his house. And why is there a 14 year old girl in his house (not his own daughter) with a last name of " Lynch " ??
The way he is listed on the census, it kinda looks like he might have been a servant, but no, Tobias O'Connor the "gentlemen" is actually a partner in the businesses of Phelan and Collender. He was also known as "Christopher O'Connor" and his family was heavily entrenched in the billiard trade, his father having been one of the very first billiard table makers in the entire country. The nickname " Gentlemen" was given to someone who was more or less independently wealthy or lived off investments etc..
Mary Lynch, we believe, was the daughter of a champion billiard player named James Lynch. James was supposed to have been a partner of Tobias O'Connor to co-own a nice big billiard hall but he unfortunately became very ill with an "uncurable cold" and died within a few months.
So Mary was perhaps under the guardianship of Phelan, or O'Connor, or maybe Phelan simply gave her room and board or a job as a servant/maid.
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I'm having trouble finding my reference material but I am 99% sure that Collender and O' Connor were partners first and when Phelan came along , he and Collender formed their company .
I think I have a reference to Phelan and O'Connor also being partners at the same time but not sure how all of this worked out at the end of the day.
I have always thought that O'Connor was probably the money man for their ventures at the beginning.
Phelan had the name and ideas , Collender was the engineer, technology person, and O'Connor was the money man.
Some historians say that Phelan went to San Francisco in 1852 penniless, and opened a room {with the financial help of a good friend} where he gained enough wealth to come back and start the huge manufactory and the pool rooms , one of which was the best at the time. {29 to 30 tables}.
The problem I have with this, is that the room in San Francisco only had 4 tables and he was only there a short while . About 3 years .
If Phelan was as honest as all the accounts, I don't understand where all the money came from.
Perhaps he expanded it into a much larger room, I have no record of that happening at this time though.
I would love to see someone from here try to find out if he did expand or not .
As far as I have found there is only one account of him playing anyone for serious money at that time, Mons. Damon for 1000.00 in 1855 and then he returned to New York.
I know that Phelan and Collender were staunch Fenians, so my conclusion would be that O'Connor, also shared their political views and that was part of why they were all together also.
From all acounts I have read , these guys made their money honestly, through hard work , inventiveness, and pooling their resources to achieve a common goal without cheating each other.
I'm wondering why Mary Lynch was not acknowledged as servant on the census?
She was only 16 and O'Connor was 35 , but Phelans own daughter had a child by Collender when she was 16 .
I don't think Phelan was the type of man to allow them in his house unwed but they may have been betrothed, or as you said , she may have just been his ward.
Something for you would be history buffs to find out!
I would like to have everyone on AZ Billiards that is actually interested in this stuff to let us know what part you like to hear about?
Also are any of you interested enough to get involved?
Also, most of us historians are getting up in years, and I for one would like to pass on what I have learned so that someone else can learn from it , and carry on, hopefully until one day, we have a history as well researched as baseball, or some of the other sports we were once bigger than!
I wonder how many of you even know that there were sets of billiard player cards made as far back as 1887/88 Old Judge cigarettes had a set and also the original Allen and Ginters {there is a recent Allen and Ginters set printed about 10 or 15 years ago , be careful not to confuse them}
I hope to hear from all of you who have interest and to what extent.
Another item someone could research is whether or not Phelan expanded his room in San Francisco from 1852 to 1855 from the original 4 tables.
Good hunting!
I think I have a reference to Phelan and O'Connor also being partners at the same time but not sure how all of this worked out at the end of the day.
I have always thought that O'Connor was probably the money man for their ventures at the beginning.
Phelan had the name and ideas , Collender was the engineer, technology person, and O'Connor was the money man.
Some historians say that Phelan went to San Francisco in 1852 penniless, and opened a room {with the financial help of a good friend} where he gained enough wealth to come back and start the huge manufactory and the pool rooms , one of which was the best at the time. {29 to 30 tables}.
The problem I have with this, is that the room in San Francisco only had 4 tables and he was only there a short while . About 3 years .
If Phelan was as honest as all the accounts, I don't understand where all the money came from.
Perhaps he expanded it into a much larger room, I have no record of that happening at this time though.
I would love to see someone from here try to find out if he did expand or not .
As far as I have found there is only one account of him playing anyone for serious money at that time, Mons. Damon for 1000.00 in 1855 and then he returned to New York.
I know that Phelan and Collender were staunch Fenians, so my conclusion would be that O'Connor, also shared their political views and that was part of why they were all together also.
From all acounts I have read , these guys made their money honestly, through hard work , inventiveness, and pooling their resources to achieve a common goal without cheating each other.
I'm wondering why Mary Lynch was not acknowledged as servant on the census?
She was only 16 and O'Connor was 35 , but Phelans own daughter had a child by Collender when she was 16 .
I don't think Phelan was the type of man to allow them in his house unwed but they may have been betrothed, or as you said , she may have just been his ward.
Something for you would be history buffs to find out!
I would like to have everyone on AZ Billiards that is actually interested in this stuff to let us know what part you like to hear about?
Also are any of you interested enough to get involved?
Also, most of us historians are getting up in years, and I for one would like to pass on what I have learned so that someone else can learn from it , and carry on, hopefully until one day, we have a history as well researched as baseball, or some of the other sports we were once bigger than!
I wonder how many of you even know that there were sets of billiard player cards made as far back as 1887/88 Old Judge cigarettes had a set and also the original Allen and Ginters {there is a recent Allen and Ginters set printed about 10 or 15 years ago , be careful not to confuse them}
I hope to hear from all of you who have interest and to what extent.
Another item someone could research is whether or not Phelan expanded his room in San Francisco from 1852 to 1855 from the original 4 tables.
Good hunting!
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Wow, 600 people looked, but no one is interested?
I have one for sale
It is approaching 1,000 viewers now....those are hits, and I think they're significant...
...people are interested and getting some value....good enough, IMO.
I read here all the time, but I rarely have something to write.
But I think this forum has great value...will be appreciated even years from now.
I have this book stored away in boxes...gonna have to go find it now.
I'm sorry if I sounded negative, that was not my intention.
I was just wondering if there were not some people who had questions, or maybe something to say about one of the old time players they may have known.
Or something about the history.
I was just wondering if there were not some people who had questions, or maybe something to say about one of the old time players they may have known.
Or something about the history.
My research has some documentation that James Lynch, born in Ireland 1822 was actually convinced to come to America by Michael Phelan, to manage his 29 table room in New York.
That he stayed in the business for 33 years and died in Baltimore in 1911!
Also Mr. Tobias C. O'Connor "billiard tables had a business address of 67 Crosby and a home address of 234 Ninth NY in 1860, was that Phelans address on the census?
Maybe we can talk about this Mr. Bond.
Or anyone who is interested.
That he stayed in the business for 33 years and died in Baltimore in 1911!
Also Mr. Tobias C. O'Connor "billiard tables had a business address of 67 Crosby and a home address of 234 Ninth NY in 1860, was that Phelans address on the census?
Maybe we can talk about this Mr. Bond.
Or anyone who is interested.
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This guy is probably in the same census...but on a different page
I just picked up this circa 1860 1/9 plate ruby ambrotype. It was advertised as a man with a 'stick', but the stick appears to have a ferrule. The spot next to the 'ferrule' is an aberration in the photo.
I just picked up this circa 1860 1/9 plate ruby ambrotype. It was advertised as a man with a 'stick', but the stick appears to have a ferrule. The spot next to the 'ferrule' is an aberration in the photo.
Attachments
..but is it a pool stick?
This is a terrific posting Mr. Bond. Thank you for the ambrotype runscott . How would you like to matchup a game with that austere gentleman? There are two things I find a little puzzling. The shaft (if indeed it is a pool stick) does not appear to be tapered and nothing extends beyond the bottom of his hand - maybe shadows blank it out. Are you suggesting this man and Phelan lived close to each other?
Big Al
This is a terrific posting Mr. Bond. Thank you for the ambrotype runscott . How would you like to matchup a game with that austere gentleman? There are two things I find a little puzzling. The shaft (if indeed it is a pool stick) does not appear to be tapered and nothing extends beyond the bottom of his hand - maybe shadows blank it out. Are you suggesting this man and Phelan lived close to each other?
Big Al
I don't like starting new threads, so I looked for 'history' and spotted this post. Given the similar 1860 years, I thought it would be an interesting add-on to the conversation. In addition, this thread's useful life appeared to have been exhausted in December, 2015, so really there was no 'hijacking' foul here. I only mention that, because I know how fond AZ'ers are of giving wrist slaps
Yes, the lack of taper would concern me to, if I were purchasing a photo like this and paying '1860 Billiard ambro' dollars for it. It's not for sale, so that part doesn't matter.
But trying to figure this out - it was a big deal to get your ambrotype made back in the late 1850's-early 1860's - not nearly the lackadaisical thing that posing for a cheap tintype on the boardwalk later became. If someone was posed holding an object, it had to do with their occupation or it was something important to them;i.e-thought went into how they dressed, posed and the accoutrements they brought to the photo shoot. This is so true, that generally when you see someone dressed like a bum, it means they were a soldier far from home, and dressed as well as they could for the traveling ambrotype artist who happened to be near their camp. Exceptions are the occupational photos. If this is such, I'm not sure what the stick represents. I thought 'fishing pole' when I bought it, but it's not right for that - in addition, at higher-res it is obvious that there is grain visible in the wood between his hands, that looks like ash to me. But I really don't know - I got it cheap. The 'ferrule' is hard to explain, but I'm sure someone will clue me in at some point.
Both men are holding sticks, but the one you posted is much, much thinner. It might be telescopic?
It reminds me of this one from the same period. Still unidentified...
For some reason this makes me think of Andrew Buist, I'll have to look through my stuff and see if I can find another pic of him to compare.