8-Ball Rules Question

I have a question regarding 8-Ball played by APA rules.........

I have a tough shot of the 8-Ball into the corner pocket. One of his balls is near the 8-Ball, so he requests to have someone watch the hit.

I have already marked my pocket with an official pocket marker. My opponent brings over the guy that is supposed to watch the hit. So they are talking about what to look for on the good/bad hit.

The guy that is watching the hit accidentally knocks over my pocket marker on the floor. I was not paying attention as I was lining up the shot.

After I pocket the ball on a good hit, my opponent yells that I did not mark my pocket. The league operator is brought over to make a final decision, and he says that because my marker was not within a diamond of the pocket when I shot, I lose.

What do you think should be the response in this case?
 

mattb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do not use your playing cue to bash the opponent over the head use your J/B or a house cue.

Seriously, call out the guy that knocked it over and demand justice from him and the operator. If they don't stand up, you may be playing in the wrong league.
 

stumpie71

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This can vary by location however this is not the national rule. The national rule is once the pocket has been marked and if it falls off during the course of the shot the pocket is considered marked. Even more sore if a third person knocked the marker off. Furthermore the pocket needs to be marked within in 2 diamonds not 1. Remember these are the rules for the national tournament and can vary by locations
 

Brozif

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Did your opponent see you mark your pocket to begin with? If he saw you originally mark it, then he basically just pulled a low down move and loses all respect. Did anyone else see you mark the pocket?

If you told the league operator that you had marked the pocket and that the individual watching the shot knocked it down, that should have been good enough for you to win. I'm guessing that both the guy wathing the shot and your opponent denied seeing the pocket marked. Nice sportsmanship you got going on in that league.

The pocket does not need to be marked right by it or even inside the first diamond by the pocket. The marker can be past the first diamond all the way to the middle diamond, just not passed the middle diamond. At least that's how it used to be when I was an APA referee in Vegas. We get used to putting it right by the pocket to avoid any confusion.

Sorry about the outcome. It sounds like you got screwed all the way around.
 

flash5153

none
Silver Member
Yep,,you got screwed. If what you say is true,,,it should not have been a loss,,,period!!!

I have seen it called bad ,,when a guy marked the pocket and just the edge of the marker was hanging over the diamond!!And they considered it not inside the diamond. (And Im talking the thickness of the marker!!)

Another reason I don't play APA,,,silly rules .
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Yep,,you got screwed. If what you say is true,,,it should not have been a loss,,,period!!!

I have seen it called bad ,,when a guy marked the pocket and just the edge of the marker was hanging over the diamond!!And they considered it not inside the diamond. (And Im talking the thickness of the marker!!)

Another reason I don't play APA,,,silly rules .

It's not the silly rule, it's the silly people playing. And using the silly rule in a manner which it wasn't intended, meaning the rule isn't designed to be a method to victory. When people stoop to using rules in this manner, it shows their lack of character, and their desperation.

Is the marker rule silly, to a degree, yes. I can understand what probably motivated its inception. We've already discussed the lengths people will go to win these games, don't you think its likely that these same sorts of people might claim that you didn't call out which pocket you were shooting at? "I didn't hear that". Now you have a whole other set if issues for players, captains, and LO's to have to adjudicate. Simply requiring a marker takes all that away.

Should we have to deal with such foolishness, no. But you can't mandate good character and common sense, and there isn't a practical screening method to eliminate those who go to extremes. And really, how much bother is it to simply place something near the pocket you intend to shoot at. Personally, I have gotten to like it, just a little, as it makes me slow down my approach to that shot. I'll trade that minor inconvenience for not having to insure that my opponent absolutely knows which pocket ( in what are usually busy and loud rooms) and to not worry about an argument.
 

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My girlfriend recently lost a semi-final match in the Singles Regionals because of a failure to mark her pocket. Although it wasn't as horrible a scenario as the original post here, it was almost as bad. The 8-ball was only a few inches away from the side-pocket. She spent a good 10-20 seconds measuring things up, clearly going for the nearest pocket. When she cut the 8ball in, her opponent went to rack the balls and then suddenly realized the pocket hadn't been marked. Her opponent went on to win the event.

It's bad enough that 8ball is the only game in pool where the shooter can lose. It's even worse when you get to the APA where they add on two additional loss scenarios. In the end, this rule will upset more winners than protect losers. I wish someone with an ounce of common sense would see that.
 

woody_968

BRING BACK 14.1
Silver Member
If they were discussing what to look for to call the hit good or bad, didnt they both know where you were trying to play the ball? To call a hit you often have to look at the cueballs reaction, and to have a good idea of what it should do the person calling the hit should have a good idea of the shot that is being attempted.

If it went down the way you say it did, you got screwed. One of the many reasons I no longer play the APA.
 

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If they were discussing what to look for to call the hit good or bad, didnt they both know where you were trying to play the ball? To call a hit you often have to look at the cueballs reaction, and to have a good idea of what it should do the person calling the hit should have a good idea of the shot that is being attempted.

If it went down the way you say it did, you got screwed. One of the many reasons I no longer play the APA.

Woody, I couldn't agree with you more. The biggest problem with the APA is that they fail to realize this game is about pocketing balls. Instead, many of its members are borrowing through rules, looking for shady maneuvers. My favorite ridiculous example comes from page 49:

a. Anytime the cue ball goes in a pocket, on the floor, or otherwise ends up
off the playing surface.


Do you realize I once had to tell someone that fetching the cueball from the ball-return and accidentally dropping it is not a foul?
 
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pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
I have a question regarding 8-Ball played by APA rules.........

I have a tough shot of the 8-Ball into the corner pocket. One of his balls is near the 8-Ball, so he requests to have someone watch the hit.

I have already marked my pocket with an official pocket marker. My opponent brings over the guy that is supposed to watch the hit. So they are talking about what to look for on the good/bad hit.

The guy that is watching the hit accidentally knocks over my pocket marker on the floor. I was not paying attention as I was lining up the shot.

After I pocket the ball on a good hit, my opponent yells that I did not mark my pocket. The league operator is brought over to make a final decision, and he says that because my marker was not within a diamond of the pocket when I shot, I lose.

What do you think should be the response in this case?
You marked the pocket..that's good enough for me...and any court of
law.
Your opponent, the ref, and the league operator need a brain transplant.

If you wish to keep playing in this group, I suggest knocking the marker
off every time your opponent shoots. If that doesn't show them the
error of their ways...they need watering twice a day.

Do yourself, and them, a favor, print this post and show it to them.
 

brophog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Please find me a ruleset in which competitive members will not do such a thing. You may be able to change the people in that relationship, but rules are tricky things.

It's why the world has so many lawyers. Rules are written as absolutes to accommodate language, that which helps us facilitate the transition from what is in the mind to something that can be commonly understood. However, the physical world contains very few things one could define in absolute terms. The word 'fact' gets thrown around an awful lot, but what most consider a fact is simply no more than a constrained definition of an observation. We generally just get close enough and call it good. That's a problem with rules in that the only real way to take an absolute and make it appear that it isn't is to attempt to piecewise define every assumable possibility. Extremely difficult for even the most simple of rulesets.

What one needs usually aren't redefined rules, but redefined people. Unless this 8 ball was expected to take an obscure path to the pocket, someone needs to inject some honesty and common sense in the equation. Common sense and the ability to remove oneself from the competitive benefits of a decision will usually patch up most problems.
 

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
...Is the marker rule silly, to a degree, yes. I can understand what probably motivated its inception. We've already discussed the lengths people will go to win these games, don't you think its likely that these same sorts of people might claim that you didn't call out which pocket you were shooting at? "I didn't hear that"...

I suppose this is true but then why isn't marking required in BCAPL 8 Ball? In my particular league I've yet to see an argument over whether the shooter called his play on the 8 Ball - even if he didn't but it was obvious.

I'm not trying to suggest that somehow BCAPL players are better sportsmen. There are many players that play in both. I'm guessing the real reason behind all these kind of nit moves we keep hearing about is that because of the APA qualification process to get to the big dance, there is more at stake to win any way possible during weekly competition. I don't think that makes it right, but just seems to be the way it is.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Please find me a ruleset in which competitive members will not do such a thing. You may be able to change the people in that relationship, but rules are tricky things.

It's why the world has so many lawyers. Rules are written as absolutes to accommodate language, that which helps us facilitate the transition from what is in the mind to something that can be commonly understood. However, the physical world contains very few things one could define in absolute terms. The word 'fact' gets thrown around an awful lot, but what most consider a fact is simply no more than a constrained definition of an observation. We generally just get close enough and call it good. That's a problem with rules in that the only real way to take an absolute and make it appear that it isn't is to attempt to piecewise define every assumable possibility. Extremely difficult for even the most simple of rulesets.

What one needs usually aren't redefined rules, but redefined people. Unless this 8 ball was expected to take an obscure path to the pocket, someone needs to inject some honesty and common sense in the equation. Common sense and the ability to remove oneself from the competitive benefits of a decision will usually patch up most problems.

My take on this...the league operator is supposed to uphold the 'spirit
of the law'.
Solomon he aint.:rolleyes:
 

flash5153

none
Silver Member
If they were discussing what to look for to call the hit good or bad, didnt they both know where you were trying to play the ball? To call a hit you often have to look at the cueballs reaction, and to have a good idea of what it should do the person calling the hit should have a good idea of the shot that is being attempted.

If it went down the way you say it did, you got screwed. One of the many reasons I no longer play the APA.

Great point,,and it seems to me if a ref is present,,it over rides any need for a pocket marker.
 

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Please find me a ruleset in which competitive members will not do such a thing. You may be able to change the people in that relationship, but rules are tricky things.

It's why the world has so many lawyers. Rules are written as absolutes to accommodate language, that which helps us facilitate the transition from what is in the mind to something that can be commonly understood. However, the physical world contains very few things one could define in absolute terms. The word 'fact' gets thrown around an awful lot, but what most consider a fact is simply no more than a constrained definition of an observation. We generally just get close enough and call it good. That's a problem with rules in that the only real way to take an absolute and make it appear that it isn't is to attempt to piecewise define every assumable possibility. Extremely difficult for even the most simple of rulesets.

What one needs usually aren't redefined rules, but redefined people. Unless this 8 ball was expected to take an obscure path to the pocket, someone needs to inject some honesty and common sense in the equation. Common sense and the ability to remove oneself from the competitive benefits of a decision will usually patch up most problems.

While I agree with everything you said here, APA officials are near cult-like in their approach to handling situations such as these. There isn't an APA referee in the world who isn't going to say, "If his marker fell off the table, it's his tough luck."
 
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