Restoring an old sportsman.

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
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Super glue was the absolute ticket....I scraped the entire area that was coming up, sanded that smooth, put on the glue and sanded again...pretty sure I won't have to bondo at all...the pieces are so thin, the glue sealed and filled them.
Thanks for the help.

Edit... My two cents on all of the above....this doesn't seem slate. The area that need repair was cracked up, most likely from water damage. It almost looks like over dried plaster I would say....if you look closely at the first picture, you can see the cracking.

This material flaked away and turned to powder when I ran a putty knife across it.

That said, Brunswick's description says slate:
"Many of the quality features of more expensive Brunswick tables are incorporated in the Sportsman. New style rail construction permits easier maintenance, provides better play and longer wear. Famous Monarch cushions give long, accurate service. Registered slates are perfectly matched, to insure an absolutely flat playing surface.
What missleads everyone is Brunswick refering to the playing surface as slate, its just for the most part, a generic word to describe the playing surface as everyone understands that is what the playing surface is called....requardless of what it's made out of.
 
This is my point exactly... I could send you hundreds of photos of slate surface Gold Crowns, but it wouldn't make a bit of difference. You would insist that they are Brunstone.

No, I do not have 34 years of experience of working on pool tables. However, I do have the better part of 10 years. Most of that time has been spent working on Gold Crown I's. There is a very distinct difference between Brunstone and slate, and it is very easy to see. If you can't tell from visual inspection, you will certainly know when you begin to level it. To suggest that I need to send you photos, so that you can educate me, is just a reflection of your arrogance.

Look, I'm not trying to start a pissing match. I respect your knowledge and experience, and I appreciate all that I have learned from you. You are an innovator and you perform quality work. You may even be the best pool table technician to ever live. That and a dollar might get you a hot cup of coffee... However, I will say with absolute certainty, that you are wrong on this matter.

To clarify, I will not post photos. Doing so would only open the door for you to further attempt to falsely discredit me. I have seen several others before me face ridicule for displaying their work. Why would I want to subject myself to that?

I don't need this forum to support my business. I am only here to offer assistance to those in need. I believe that was the original intent of this sub-forum. Funny how lonely it has gotten here.. I wonder why??



If your wanting to know why this forum got lonely....it's simple.....you have all the wanta b installers calling themselves mechanics.....and offering info when they really don't know shit.
This forum turned into a site for selling tables.....and to argue.

What people are missing in this forum is the fact that the person asking really knows nothing about tables...and are trusting the guys posting to know what is factually true.
This site turned into installers private messaging people telling them they do as good of work as such and such....but I don't have the reputation so I can't charge the same prices.
Sad the guy paying for the work done....believes he's getting the right Job done for his money.....at the same time saving money not using me or Glen

I could go on and on....I do understand Glen and I can't do every job out here.....but the rail work I've seen done by guys on here is not very good playing...some look good....but don't play well at all.

I know....the guys going to say such and such did mine and your wrong they play great.....but really...how good does the guy making that statement play....LMAO

I already know....lol. The ball bounces and they think it's perfect...LOL
Try doing rails for great players....like I do...then tell me why this forum is not the same as yrs back.
I do know this thread was about slates.....but you asked why this talk to a mechanic is so slow.......people answering questions that aren't mechanics or even and installer...and there's a major difference between installer and mechanics.
Wish there was a test to find out who's and mechanic or installer or just that guy pulling the wool over customers eyes to make money.....and there are several of them on this site.
Mark Gregory
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
If your wanting to know why this forum got lonely....it's simple.....you have all the wanta b installers calling themselves mechanics.....and offering info when they really don't know shit.
This forum turned into a site for selling tables.....and to argue.

What people are missing in this forum is the fact that the person asking really knows nothing about tables...and are trusting the guys posting to know what is factually true.
This site turned into installers private messaging people telling them they do as good of work as such and such....but I don't have the reputation so I can't charge the same prices.
Sad the guy paying for the work done....believes he's getting the right Job done for his money.....at the same time saving money not using me or Glen

I could go on and on....I do understand Glen and I can't do every job out here.....but the rail work I've seen done by guys on here is not very good playing...some look good....but don't play well at all.

I know....the guys going to say such and such did mine and your wrong they play great.....but really...how good does the guy making that statement play....LMAO

I already know....lol. The ball bounces and they think it's perfect...LOL
Try doing rails for great players....like I do...then tell me why this forum is not the same as yrs back.
I do know this thread was about slates.....but you asked why this talk to a mechanic is so slow.......people answering questions that aren't mechanics or even and installer...and there's a major difference between installer and mechanics.
Wish there was a test to find out who's and mechanic or installer or just that guy pulling the wool over customers eyes to make money.....and there are several of them on this site.
Mark Gregory

Hello Mark,

Good to see you back on the forum.

I agree with some of your points, to a certain degree. People come here seeking answers, under the assumption that they are talking to 'experts'. Unfortunately, there isn't much way of vetting those who respond. For this reason, you have guys who may have only set up one table (their own) posting replies on every single topic.

I have seen some forums, where vetted 'experts' have a special badge next to their username. However, with no formal certification for table technicians ('Mechanic' is a name given to those who work on machinery), it's very difficult to know who is reputable and who isn't. But, I digress..

I have some different thoughts on what makes a good playing table, though I will not get into that here. Maybe we can chat sometime offline. Just know, that I totally get where you are coming from, and I agree with much of what you said.

I am not a fan of unethical business practice. I much prefer full disclosure, right up front. I'm pretty sure that you and I have talked about this in the past.

I don't believe that any of your comments are directed toward me, and I would certainly hope not. I have never once attempted to steal any business from you, nor have I ever implied that I offer the same level of work that you do, nor do I have the desire to go to the extents that you do. For rails requiring the level of detail that you provide, I generally defer to you.

By the way, congratulations on the table sale! I talked to Pat about it a couple of days ago. That thing sure is sweet, and I am certainly glad that I was able to see it in person (at the Expo). I took quite a few photos of the table and the light. A true work of art.
 
Hello Mark,

Good to see you back on the forum.

I agree with some of your points, to a certain degree. People come here seeking answers, under the assumption that they are talking to 'experts'. Unfortunately, there isn't much way of vetting those who respond. For this reason, you have guys who may have only set up one table (their own) posting replies on every single topic.

I have seen some forums, where vetted 'experts' have a special badge next to their username. However, with no formal certification for table technicians ('Mechanic' is a name given to those who work on machinery), it's very difficult to know who is reputable and who isn't. But, I digress..

I have some different thoughts on what makes a good playing table, though I will not get into that here. Maybe we can chat sometime offline. Just know, that I totally get where you are coming from, and I agree with much of what you said.

I am not a fan of unethical business practice. I much prefer full disclosure, right up front. I'm pretty sure that you and I have talked about this in the past.

I don't believe that any of your comments are directed toward me, and I would certainly hope not. I have never once attempted to steal any business from you, nor have I ever implied that I offer the same level of work that you do, nor do I have the desire to go to the extents that you do. For rails requiring the level of detail that you provide, I generally defer to you.

By the way, congratulations on the table sale! I talked to Pat about it a couple of days ago. That thing sure is sweet, and I am certainly glad that I was able to see it in person (at the Expo). I took quite a few photos of the table and the light. A true work of art.

No buddy....nothing towards you at all......you try and do the best work you can offer and I like that about you.

You do the work your capable of and don't con jobs for money.
I respect that of anyone....everyone will learn more and more everyday.

Trust me....I'm still learning things all the time......I really don't believe someone will master a perfect table.....or master the game it's self.

There are so many factors that play a part of how tables play....no one will ever make the perfect table.....just some will make the tables play just a little better than the rest.......that's what I try and do for players.

The best thing that could happen is for someone like Brunswick to do a real mechanics school and test.

Like I said....your one that cares about the work you do....of course it's about making money......but people can do great work and still make money......you just may have to put some more hrs into the job......so it takes longer......your going to stand around and bullshit the extra time you could have made a better playing table.

It just bothers me how these guys on here offering work are doing it just to get paid and not really understanding the job there doing.
That's what gets me fired up.......people take on jobs and then call someone and asks them to tell them how to do the job.

I don't have to mention names...they know who they are.....it's all about the money.....NOT THE WORK OR TABLE........I put so many hrs into the tables I restore and build parts for....that's why I'm high priced......YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

My line is open to someone wanting to do right....not just get through it.

Mark Gregory
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
No buddy....nothing towards you at all......you try and do the best work you can offer and I like that about you.

You do the work your capable of and don't con jobs for money.
I respect that of anyone....everyone will learn more and more everyday.

Trust me....I'm still learning things all the time......I really don't believe someone will master a perfect table.....or master the game it's self.

There are so many factors that play a part of how tables play....no one will ever make the perfect table.....just some will make the tables play just a little better than the rest.......that's what I try and do for players.

The best thing that could happen is for someone like Brunswick to do a real mechanics school and test.

Like I said....your one that cares about the work you do....of course it's about making money......but people can do great work and still make money......you just may have to put some more hrs into the job......so it takes longer......your going to stand around and bullshit the extra time you could have made a better playing table.

It just bothers me how these guys on here offering work are doing it just to get paid and not really understanding the job there doing.
That's what gets me fired up.......people take on jobs and then call someone and asks them to tell them how to do the job.

I don't have to mention names...they know who they are.....it's all about the money.....NOT THE WORK OR TABLE........I put so many hrs into the tables I restore and build parts for....that's why I'm high priced......YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

My line is open to someone wanting to do right....not just get through it.

Mark Gregory


Funny enough, I calculated my profit for the Sport King restoration that I did. It was laughable, to say the least.. I established a sell price BEFORE I did the restoration. Despite my mistake, I still put in the time to perform the work to the absolute best of my ability. I also included several 'extras', that the buyer hadn't previously considered. Even though I hardly made much on the table, I learned a ton in the process, and I am thrilled with the final product.
 

d_day

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe I can settle the debate. I'll start by stating for the record that I am not a mechanic, nor am I an installer. I did work on tables for a few years in the early 90s, but my experience in the field pales in comparison to either of you.

My family has a long history of working with rocks and minerals. My great grandmother and her second husband worked the silver mines at Calico in California. She discovered and named more than one variety of stone found in the area. My grandfather was a gemologist. My uncle was one of Morrison Knudsen's top geologists--and to this day holds several world records for tunneling speed.

While I do not hold a degree in geology, I've had more than enough education (both formal and informal) to hold one. I am also an amateur jeweler and stone carver. I cut and polish each and every stone I use in my work. It's safe to say I know quite a bit about stone.

Actually, the mere mentioning of the surface 'flaking' is generally considered proof that it is slate. Slate fractures in thin layers, like shale. Brunstone fractures in chunks, like a chocolate bar.

Brunstone is a sandstone. Sandstone forms in much the same way as shale. The main difference is in the size of the particles. Each year there is seasonal runoff which carries with it bits of eroded stone. When the running water of a river slows down, the particles of eroded rock fall out of suspension. The largest particles fall out first, and the finest particles fall out last. Sandstone and shale are sedimentary rocks, while slate is a metamorphic rock. Sandstone, as the name implies, is composed of sand deposits that have been compressed over time. Shale is composed of compressed silt deposits. Shale and sandstone both form in layers. Given enough time and pressure, shale will turn into slate. Sandstone, on the other hand, turns into quartzite, which is not really important here.

As more and more material is deposited on top of shale, it begins to compress and heat up. As the heat and pressure build, chemical bonds break, and many new ones form. The new minerals form in flat plates perpendicular to the direction of force. This is what gives slate such great cleavage. Because sandstone forms in layers, it can often have a similar cleavage to slate. Just because a stone can be chipped into nice flat flakes is not enough evidence to call that stone slate.

An important distinction between slate and sandstone lies in the way it is quarried. Slate's cleavage is so good that it is split into pieces slightly larger than needed on site. First, a diamond saw is used to cut down into the slate, across it's layers, around five inches deep. Then a forklift comes along and literally scoops up the pieces by splitting it from the edge and then sliding the forks under the slab. Sandstone is quarried into large blocks, which are then cut into slabs on a saw.

If there's any ridges running across the surface in dark straight lines anywhere from 2" to 4" wide, that's cause by the sticker boards that was use to separate the pieces during their drying stages, which prevented the covered area by the sticker boards from fully drying resulting in a ridge you can feel.

Not all dark lines are caused by boards. Sometimes, they are actually a part of the stone as it existed in nature. If you'll notice in the picture below, the dark line (outlined in red) actually wraps around the end of the of the stone. This wouldn't happen from boards placed between slate sets. This discolored area is actually a distinct layer of stone. It ran nearly perpendicular to the finished playing surface.

Because slate is mined the way it is, the layers always run parallel to the playing surface. You might see a darker or lighter layer in a piece of slate, but it will never cross from top to bottom. This only becomes possible when a stone is quarried on large blocks and sawn into slabs. Conclusion, this is not slate.

https://imgur.com/a/zYylv
 
Last edited:

The ProRailbird

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not all dark lines are caused by boards. Sometimes, they are actually a part of the stone as it existed in nature. If you'll notice in the picture below, the dark line (outlined in red) actually wraps around the end of the of the stone. This wouldn't happen from boards placed between slate sets. This discolored area is actually a distinct layer of stone. It ran nearly perpendicular to the finished playing surface.

Because slate is mined the way it is, the layers always run parallel to the playing surface. You might see a darker or lighter layer in a piece of slate, but it will never cross from top to bottom. This only becomes possible when a stone is quarried on large blocks and sawn into slabs. Conclusion, this is not slate.

https://imgur.com/a/zYylv

I have seen those dark streaks in several pics on slate related threads here on AZB. I never believed it was from stickering the slate so it could dry.
I never found any on my GC1 Snooker table, so I assume it's made of slate...It could be Turd-Stone for all I know! :D

Anyway I thought & still think, it is being mined from a large block just as you said. Which is contrary to the way Brunswick mines real slate.

In this thread, the last pic in the very first post shows what you are describing very well. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=402211

Brunswick slate mining video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k717SV6ljBQ
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I have seen those dark streaks in several pics on slate related threads here on AZB. I never believed it was from stickering the slate so it could dry.
I never found any on my GC1 Snooker table, so I assume it's made of slate...It could be Turd-Stone for all I know! :D

Anyway I thought & still think, it is being mined from a large block just as you said. Which is contrary to the way Brunswick mines real slate.

In this thread, the last pic in the very first post shows what you are describing very well. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=402211

Brunswick slate mining video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k717SV6ljBQ
Brunswick didn't use brunstone in their 10' or 12' tables.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I have seen those dark streaks in several pics on slate related threads here on AZB. I never believed it was from stickering the slate so it could dry.
I never found any on my GC1 Snooker table, so I assume it's made of slate...It could be Turd-Stone for all I know! :D

Anyway I thought & still think, it is being mined from a large block just as you said. Which is contrary to the way Brunswick mines real slate.

In this thread, the last pic in the very first post shows what you are describing very well. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=402211

Brunswick slate mining video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k717SV6ljBQ

Sediment vains run through slate at times and you can see them pretty easy as they line up from one slate to the next. Next time you look at the dark lines running across the brunstone playing surface of a table pictured, see if they're connecting from one piece to the next, or they're no where near to lining up from piece to piece. If you don't buy the drying process....how do you explain the darker lines not lining up from piece to piece like a mineral deposit vain would?
 
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