Restoring an old sportsman.

outrunu said:

So I'm restoring an early Brunswick sportsman. Wood work and rails are all done. Set the slates tonight, and I noticed that some of the water damage that I dealt with in the wood also transferred to one piece of the slate.

My thoughts are to sand the slate flat where the damage is to the coating, and then give that area a small pass of bondo when I do the seams and sand it again.

Second option is to sand and then respray the slate with a sandable filler primer and sand flat after that.

Pictures to follow.

Thanks.

Table https://imgur.com/gallery/6FlDc

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I am not aware of any coating ever being applied to slate, nor could I recommend the use of any.

Aside from that, if you have any raised areas, or defects in the slate, it will be fine to sand them down. You can apply Bondo, as necessary.

When sanding slate, it helps to have a large block sander. In a pinch, I have purchased some 3/4" thick by 8" wide melamine shelving, and cut two pieces at 11-12" length. I sandwiched the two pieces together with glue and screws, to make it a more rigid block. Then, I attached full sheets (9"x11") of 80 grit sandpaper, using contact adhesive.


I like the finish of your frame. I restored a Sport King a couple of months ago. Some of the wood required extensive repair, so I stripped and painted it. Satin black on the frame and gloss black on the side skirts. I painted the corner castings and tin with a gray texture paint.

For such a simple design, I really like the look, when they are done right. Yours looks like it will be a beauty. Nice job.

outrunu said:

Ya, I'm happy with the finish....used Minwax Walnut stain, then rubbed it with Tru Oil. Tournament blue Simonis is going on it. I'll put a thread together when it's done.

I got lucky in that it was an early one. The rails are solid wood, not a laminate. From what I found, it was gumwood that was used in them. The shape that this table was in, if the rails were laminate, it would have been a loss.

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That's Brunstone not slate, and there is no finsh on it.

While I respect Glen's knowledge and experience, our arguments about Brunstone are well documented on this forum. We will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

I can tell you with a high degree of certainty, your table surface is slate, NOT Brunstone. It looks EXACTLY like the Sport King that I set up a month ago, which was also slate. It also looks like the many Gold Crown I's, II's, III's and Anniversary tables that I have set up, also having slate surface. However, it looks NOTHING like the many more Gold Crown I's that I have set up which had Brunstone surface.

In this case, I am curious about the piece that is flaking.. Is it near the seam, perhaps directly above one of the locating pins? Actually, the mere mentioning of the surface 'flaking' is generally considered proof that it is slate. Slate fractures in thin layers, like shale. Brunstone fractures in chunks, like a chocolate bar.

Regardless of whether a table is slate or Brunstone, Bondo is still an acceptable medium for filling voids.

To answer your other question: based on my own observations, I would guess that Brunswick started using Brunstone in the mid-late 50's. It's hard to say how long it was used, as I have seen quite a mix of Brunstone AND slate tables from the 50's, 60's, and 70's. You won't find much documentation on Brunstone, so we are left only to hearsay.

I think my Gold Crown definitely has Brunstone on it. It has sort of a grey look but you can most definitely see the tan color in certain areas. I personally dont think it makes a lick of difference if its slate or Brunstone, if the Brunstone was so sub par to slate my Gold Crown would not have lasted nearly 50 years so far. Anyone that wants to dump their Brunswick commercial tables because it has "inferior" Brunstone on it can feel free to sell it to me for pennies so you can get a proper table with real slate.

fastone371 said:

I think my Gold Crown definitely has Brunstone on it. It has sort of a grey look but you can most definitely see the tan color in certain areas. I personally dont think it makes a lick of difference if its slate or Brunstone, if the Brunstone was so sub par to slate my Gold Crown would not have lasted nearly 50 years so far. Anyone that wants to dump their Brunswick commercial tables because it has "inferior" Brunstone on it can feel free to sell it to me for pennies so you can get a proper table with real slate.

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Brimstone is not inferior to slate, and I've never said is was. But understand it's different to work with Brunstone vs slate as its way more brittle than slate is.

bradsh98 said:

While I respect Glen's knowledge and experience, our arguments about Brunstone are well documented on this forum. We will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

I can tell you with a high degree of certainty, your table surface is slate, NOT Brunstone. It looks EXACTLY like the Sport King that I set up a month ago, which was also slate. It also looks like the many Gold Crown I's, II's, III's and Anniversary tables that I have set up, also having slate surface. However, it looks NOTHING like the many more Gold Crown I's that I have set up which had Brunstone surface.

In this case, I am curious about the piece that is flaking.. Is it near the seam, perhaps directly above one of the locating pins? Actually, the mere mentioning of the surface 'flaking' is generally considered proof that it is slate. Slate fractures in thin layers, like shale. Brunstone fractures in chunks, like a chocolate bar.

Regardless of whether a table is slate or Brunstone, Bondo is still an acceptable medium for filling voids.

To answer your other question: based on my own observations, I would guess that Brunswick started using Brunstone in the mid-late 50's. It's hard to say how long it was used, as I have seen quite a mix of Brunstone AND slate tables from the 50's, 60's, and 70's. You won't find much documentation on Brunstone, so we are left only to hearsay.

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It's to bad you don't have 34+ years of working on pool tables to back up your knowledge when you question my knowledge. Take a look at the pictures again, blow them up larger if you need to, there is no ground surface on that Brunstone buddy, in fact you can see the sand grain pitted surface clearly. One of the best ways of seening the difference between brunstone and real slate is by looking at the water putty that has been used on the seams as a filler. On brunstone it penetrates the surface of the brunstone and leaves like a cloudy residue spread out. On slate, there is no penetration into the surface of the slate, if anything, it exposes the grinding marks clearly to be seen. Both surfaces wilk wipe clean with a wet rag. The black finish the OP is talking about along the seam is wax, clean it off with a rag and turpentine, and it'll disappear. If there's any ridges running across the surface in dark straight lines anywhere from 2" to 4" wide, that's cause by the sticker boards that was use to separate the pieces during their drying stages, which prevented the covered area by the sticker boards from fully drying resulting in a ridge you can feel.

bradsh98 said:

In this case, I am curious about the piece that is flaking.. Is it near the seam, perhaps directly above one of the locating pins? Actually, the mere mentioning of the surface 'flaking' is generally considered proof that it is slate. Slate fractures in thin layers, like shale. Brunstone fractures in chunks, like a chocolate bar.

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You have no idea what you're talking about. Slate chips, brunstone crumbles. Brunstone drills like drilling compressed sand, slate drills like a solid rock. Slate will heat up a carbide drill bit until it burns up, drilling brunstone will hardly get the drill bit to warm up. Slate never breaks clean through, brunston almost always does.

outrunu said:

This is where the surface seems to be flaking from.....nothing that I don't feel that I can't repair with a bit of time.

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Slate don't flake...LOL pour some super glue on that area, drag it around with a putty knife until the entire surface area has a thin layer of glue on it, it penetrates the sand like surface and hold the flaking in place. Then fill in with bondo and sand flat. Bondo only sticks to the surface, if the surface is unstable, your repairs will be also.

bradsh98 said:

While I respect Glen's knowledge and experience, our arguments about Brunstone are well documented on this forum. We will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

I can tell you with a high degree of certainty, your table surface is slate, NOT Brunstone. It looks EXACTLY like the Sport King that I set up a month ago, which was also slate. It also looks like the many Gold Crown I's, II's, III's and Anniversary tables that I have set up, also having slate surface. However, it looks NOTHING like the many more Gold Crown I's that I have set up which had Brunstone surface.

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Any time you want to start sending me pictures of those slates to get an educated second opinion, you just go ahead and send them to me, maybe then you learn the difference between brunstone and real slate.

realkingcobra said:

Any time you want to start sending me pictures of those slates to get an educated second opinion, you just go ahead and send them to me, maybe then you learn the difference between brunstone and real slate.

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This is my point exactly... I could send you hundreds of photos of slate surface Gold Crowns, but it wouldn't make a bit of difference. You would insist that they are Brunstone.

No, I do not have 34 years of experience of working on pool tables. However, I do have the better part of 10 years. Most of that time has been spent working on Gold Crown I's. There is a very distinct difference between Brunstone and slate, and it is very easy to see. If you can't tell from visual inspection, you will certainly know when you begin to level it. To suggest that I need to send you photos, so that you can educate me, is just a reflection of your arrogance.

Look, I'm not trying to start a pissing match. I respect your knowledge and experience, and I appreciate all that I have learned from you. You are an innovator and you perform quality work. You may even be the best pool table technician to ever live. That and a dollar might get you a hot cup of coffee... However, I will say with absolute certainty, that you are wrong on this matter.

To clarify, I will not post photos. Doing so would only open the door for you to further attempt to falsely discredit me. I have seen several others before me face ridicule for displaying their work. Why would I want to subject myself to that?

I don't need this forum to support my business. I am only here to offer assistance to those in need. I believe that was the original intent of this sub-forum. Funny how lonely it has gotten here.. I wonder why??

realkingcobra said:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Slate chips, brunstone crumbles. ... Slate never breaks clean through, brunston almost always does.

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This is pretty much exactly what I said...

bradsh98 said:

Slate fractures in thin layers, like shale. Brunstone fractures in chunks, like a chocolate bar.

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bradsh98 said:

This is pretty much exactly what I said...

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Slate breaks straight through as well, not just in thin layers, i know, I've repaired enouth of it. Brunstone also breaks in layers like a deck of cards, as does slate. The fact that you can't tell the difference between the 2 by just looking at it speaks volumes about your knowledge on the subject, sorry! Slate has grinding marks in a circular pattern, brunstone won't hold the gringing marks because its to sand like, ask the OP if he sees grinding ANY grinding marks ANYWHERE in the surface of that so called slate? Then ask him if the surface of the brunstone looks like the surface of a compressed sugar cube, or like the surface of fine smoothed out concrete, or gritty like the side thickness of particle board.

I tried telling you plaster used to fill the seams fills in the gritty surface cloudy like because it fills in between the rock grain, whereas on real slate it can't penetrate the surface so it stays on top. Look around the slate screw holes that have been filled in, look at the slate seams, you'll see the cloudiness in all those areas. Sandimg the surface with 80grt sand paper creates slate dust on real slate, it creates gritty dust on brunstone. Problem is, you just don't want to be wrong and admit it. Brunswick quit producing slate during WWll, and didn't start buying slate from Italy until the late 70s, early 80s. Even the first GC3s didn't have real slate, they came with Brunstone, because they were still using the GC1 pocket casting hardware on the rails when the GC3 first came out. Yes, the earliest centennial's and anniversaries were available with real Brunswick slate, but as Brunswick used up their stock pile of slate, they too were switched over to brunstone. In the 60s, when the Sport Kings were being manufactured, Brunswick didn't have slate to put on them. Not saying brunstone couldn't have been switched out at a later date, but that changes things.

realkingcobra said:

Slate never breaks clean through, brunston almost always does.

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Here you go contradicting yourself..

realkingcobra said:

Slate breaks straight through as well, not just in thin layers, i know, I've repaired enouth of it. Brunstone also breaks in layers like a deck of cards, as does slate.

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realkingcobra said:

The fact that you can't tell the difference between the 2 by just looking at it speaks volumes about your knowledge on the subject, sorry!

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Funny enough, I was thinking the same thing about you, as the pictured table (and many more before it) is obviously slate. I'm not sure where you get this idea about me though. You can see my earlier comments right here:

bradsh98 said:

There is a very distinct difference between Brunstone and slate, and it is very easy to see. If you can't tell from visual inspection, you will certainly know when you begin to level it.

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realkingcobra said:

Slate has grinding marks in a circular pattern, brunstone won't hold the gringing marks because its to sand like, ask the OP if he sees grinding ANY grinding marks ANYWHERE in the surface of that so called slate? Then ask him if the surface of the brunstone looks like the surface of a compressed sugar cube, or like the surface of fine smoothed out concrete, or gritty like the side thickness of particle board.

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If we were talking about newer tables, where grinding marks are very pronounced, I might tend to agree with you. However, we are not. Surface finish should be a lower priority, when determining the type of stone.

realkingcobra said:

I tried telling you plaster used to fill the seams fills in the gritty surface cloudy like because it fills in between the rock grain, whereas on real slate it can't penetrate the surface so it stays on top. Look around the slate screw holes that have been filled in, look at the slate seams, you'll see the cloudiness in all those areas. Sandimg the surface with 80grt sand paper creates slate dust on real slate, it creates gritty dust on brunstone. Problem is, you just don't want to be wrong and admit it.

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This is just more "blah, blah blah.." If you want a real test, try scraping the surface with a utility blade. Slate will actually scratch easily. Brunstone will require a lot of force, and quickly dull your blade. I have ZERO problem with admitting when I am wrong. In fact, I generally only post on this forum when I have a very strong opinion on a subject. This particular subject just so happens to be something that I have researched extensively, and taken a significant interest in. I am happy to admit when I am wrong, but it will take documented facts to change my opinion on this matter.

realkingcobra said:

Brunswick quit producing slate during WWll, and didn't start buying slate from Italy until the late 70s, early 80s. Even the first GC3s didn't have real slate, they came with Brunstone, because they were still using the GC1 pocket casting hardware on the rails when the GC3 first came out. Yes, the earliest centennial's and anniversaries were available with real Brunswick slate, but as Brunswick used up their stock pile of slate, they too were switched over to brunstone. In the 60s, when the Sport Kings were being manufactured, Brunswick didn't have slate to put on them. Not saying brunstone couldn't have been switched out at a later date, but that changes things.

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I have previously asked you to post one single documented source to support this 'theory', though you have yet to do so. I am left to believe that this is your own theory, based on your own experience. However, my experience leads me to a different theory.


Again, I am not looking for this to be a pissing match. I do not think less of you for disagreeing with me. I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to make this personal, by throwing insults at me. We can have a mature debate, without personal attacks.

bradsh98 said:

Here you go contradicting yourself..





Funny enough, I was thinking the same thing about you, as the pictured table (and many more before it) is obviously slate. I'm not sure where you get this idea about me though. You can see my earlier comments right here:





If we were talking about newer tables, where grinding marks are very pronounced, I might tend to agree with you. However, we are not. Surface finish should be a lower priority, when determining the type of stone.



This is just more "blah, blah blah.." If you want a real test, try scraping the surface with a utility blade. Slate will actually scratch easily. Brunstone will require a lot of force, and quickly dull your blade. I have ZERO problem with admitting when I am wrong. In fact, I generally only post on this forum when I have a very strong opinion on a subject. This particular subject just so happens to be something that I have researched extensively, and taken a significant interest in. I am happy to admit when I am wrong, but it will take documented facts to change my opinion on this matter.



I have previously asked you to post one single documented source to support this 'theory', though you have yet to do so. I am left to believe that this is your own theory, based on your own experience. However, my experience leads me to a different theory.


Again, I am not looking for this to be a pissing match. I do not think less of you for disagreeing with me. I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to make this personal, by throwing insults at me. We can have a mature debate, without personal attacks.

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What i mean by slate never breaks clean through is that when slate breaks there's almost always a little angle to the break, to a bad break like it shells way across in the bottom vs the top break. Brunstone on the other hand almost always just breaks through at almost 90 degrees like a cracker snapped in half, because it's so brittle.