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Saturated Fats
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Pros don't know the rules - 10-21-2017, 12:58 PM

Is it too much to ask that you should be familiar with the rules before you play in a tournament? They are spending (at least) hundreds to go to and enter the tournament - probably more. They stand to win thousands, but they can't be troubled to familiarize themselves with the rules beforehand.

Case 1 - Alex gives up the table to Thorsten because he thinks he's on two fouls when he's only on one. He thinks his foul on the opening break carries over and it doesn't. He loses the match and is put out of the tournament. This is in a match where he ran over 100 balls.

Case 2 - Rodney loses a match by two points and is put out of the tournament by Shaw. To begin the match, he commits a two point foul by not getting the cue ball and two object balls to a rail because he doesn't know that's required on the opening break.

I'm sure that there are plenty of further examples throughout the week. WTF!
  
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Bob Jewett
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10-22-2017, 07:06 AM

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Originally Posted by Saturated Fats View Post
Is it too much to ask that you should be familiar with the rules before you play in a tournament? They are spending (at least) hundreds to go to and enter the tournament - probably more. ...
Evidently it is. Back when I was learning the game I did read the rule book but that didn't keep me from making the "breaking violation not the first of three" error when it came up. It would be nice if there were something like a school for pros that would be required for participation in more than a few pro events but there is no money to fund such a thing.

There was another case earlier (in Midlothian) of the confusion about a breaking violation.

One cause of the lack of rules knowledge is the lack of tournaments. The other is lack of tournament staff that actually knows the rules. Another is directors/promoters who insist on making up rules for no good reason. An example of that is the scratch-on-the-nine rule in the current (starts in half an hour) US Open 9-Ball.


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10-22-2017, 08:32 AM

In my experience, the main source of confusion is distinguishing between a breaking foul and just a regular foul on a break, i.e. if you drive two balls and the CB to a rail, but you scratch, that's a legal break (so no breaking foul) but it's a standard foul that counts towards the three. That happens a lot because you're always flirting with the corner pocket, and I'd say I have to remind them more than half the time what the rule is.

The other big one is that most of the guys I play with don't realize that you don't HAVE to re-rack after an illegal break. I can just take it as is.

Regardless, I'm sort of missing the days when high profile games had actual referees.
  
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10-22-2017, 09:10 AM

I'm a little embarrassed to ask this, but I don't play in any leagues or tournaments so I'm allowed. Who makes the rules, where are the rules, and is everyone informed which rules are in play for a particular tournament? Also, are the rules printed that can be shown immediately to an opponent at the table, or are they only available online?
  
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10-22-2017, 09:11 AM

There isn't any cash in 14.1 therefore they don't play it frequently. It's understandable they might not be up on the rules.
  
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10-22-2017, 02:01 PM

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Originally Posted by alstl View Post
There isn't any cash in 14.1 therefore they don't play it frequently. It's understandable they might not be up on the rules.
I recall having a (now deceased) pro tell me that the entire object ball had to be out of the kitchen in order to shoot at it after a scratch in one pocket. This particular player had won a 1P tournament that was billed as the US Open One Pocket and it was several years after the rules were changed to specify the base of the ball.
  
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10-22-2017, 11:28 PM

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Originally Posted by Saturated Fats View Post
... Case 1 - Alex gives up the table to Thorsten because he thinks he's on two fouls when he's only on one. He thinks his foul on the opening break carries over and it doesn't. He loses the match and is put out of the tournament. This is in a match where he ran over 100 balls.WTF!
I agree that some of the pros lack knowledge of the rules.

But your example of that Pagulayan/Hohmann match on Oct. 21 isn't right. Alex played successful safeties in his second, third, and fourth innings. He fouled off the side of the rack for his fifth inning and then ran balls in both his sixth and seventh innings without fouling. Inning 8 was an intentional foul; innings 9 and 10 (his last) were safeties.

So Alex would never have thought he was on two fouls related to his opening breaking foul.

[His high run that game was 95, in his 7th ining.]

Last edited by AtLarge; 10-22-2017 at 11:45 PM.
  
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10-23-2017, 10:31 AM

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Originally Posted by bluepepper View Post
I'm a little embarrassed to ask this, but I don't play in any leagues or tournaments so I'm allowed. Who makes the rules, where are the rules, and is everyone informed which rules are in play for a particular tournament? Also, are the rules printed that can be shown immediately to an opponent at the table, or are they only available online?
The world governing body for pool is the WPA. The rules are available on their website http://wpapool.com and there is (I'm pretty sure) a PDF there you can download and/or print out.

Whether a printed copy is available at a table depends mostly on the players.

The BCA rule book should have the latest WPA rules in it but the last time I looked it had a few typos.


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10-23-2017, 10:40 AM

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Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
I agree that some of the pros lack knowledge of the rules.

But your example of that Pagulayan/Hohmann match on Oct. 21 isn't right. Alex played successful safeties in his second, third, and fourth innings. He fouled off the side of the rack for his fifth inning and then ran balls in both his sixth and seventh innings without fouling. Inning 8 was an intentional foul; innings 9 and 10 (his last) were safeties.

So Alex would never have thought he was on two fouls related to his opening breaking foul.

[His high run that game was 95, in his 7th ining.]
As I remember it, Alex had a breaking violation with a scratch and then Thorsten took ball in hand and ran one rack, leaving himself out of position below a behind-the-rack break ball (the 15). He then played an intentional foul and pushed up to the head rail.

If that is what happened, the correct move for Alex would be to push to the center of the head cushion but instead he played a beautiful safe going two cushions to the 15 and got a rail and a safe.

I suspect that Alex thought he was on the first foul when he played the hero safe. I asked him about it afterwards and he sort of said he had no idea what the rule was.


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10-23-2017, 11:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
As I remember it, Alex had a breaking violation with a scratch and then Thorsten took ball in hand and ran one rack, leaving himself out of position below a behind-the-rack break ball (the 15). He then played an intentional foul and pushed up to the head rail.

If that is what happened, the correct move for Alex would be to push to the center of the head cushion but instead he played a beautiful safe going two cushions to the 15 and got a rail and a safe.

I suspect that Alex thought he was on the first foul when he played the hero safe. I asked him about it afterwards and he sort of said he had no idea what the rule was.
Yes, that is what happened -- a completely unnecessary and dangerous (but legal) safety for Alex's second inning.

So Alex was never on 2 fouls, but apparently did misunderstand the rules. Incidentally, so did the commentators.

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10-23-2017, 12:52 PM

Bob -- You were sitting behind the head of the table for that Pagulayan/Hohmann match, right?

Am I remembering correctly that Peter Burrows was asked what the rule was after Alex's break? Perhaps he told the players that it was a 2-pointer but that Alex also was on one foul because of the scratch. That might account for both players thinking that Alex was on the first foul (which led to Thorsten playing an intentional foul rather than a safety).
  
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10-23-2017, 02:53 PM

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Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
Bob -- You were sitting behind the head of the table for that Pagulayan/Hohmann match, right?

Am I remembering correctly that Peter Burrows was asked what the rule was after Alex's break? Perhaps he told the players that it was a 2-pointer but that Alex also was on one foul because of the scratch. That might account for both players thinking that Alex was on the first foul (which led to Thorsten playing an intentional foul rather than a safety).
I was there but I did not hear the conversation.


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Ball in hand break shot
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Ball in hand break shot - 10-26-2017, 09:43 AM

It does not matter much about how many times can you hit a frozen ball to the same rail and all that silly non sense. Best way to determine who the best player is in 14.1 is ball in hand break shot ( as they do at derby city 14.1 challenge). Players can move on any rack where its standard procedure to break safe. It really opens the door for cheaters and rack mechanics, with the derby city straight pool challenge none of that even exist. Oh the rule is run out more pool balls than anyone else competing.
  
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10-27-2017, 11:38 AM

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Originally Posted by Danny Harriman View Post
It does not matter much about how many times can you hit a frozen ball to the same rail and all that silly non sense. Best way to determine who the best player is in 14.1 is ball in hand break shot ( as they do at derby city 14.1 challenge). Players can move on any rack where its standard procedure to break safe. It really opens the door for cheaters and rack mechanics, with the derby city straight pool challenge none of that even exist. Oh the rule is run out more pool balls than anyone else competing.
Respectfully, I disagree. The high run challenges do establish who is best when playing only offense, but the game of 14.1 has both offense and defense -- which makes it interesting. Don't get me wrong -- I like watching and playing offense only, but there is a huge place for the full game of 14.1, both because playing and watching good safety battles can be a very intense experience, and because by putting defense into the game (especially at levels below elite), a player who doesn't have quite the stroke that his opponent has can still compete and win -- by employing defensive strategy.
  
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10-30-2017, 10:33 AM

Roger that Seth, it is different hitting the open break well and then finally after some defensive shots a player 'breaks free' with that first long ball. I just like the simplicity of the derby city 14.1 challenge format. When two players are competing and one knows all the rules - the other knows how to run racks I like betting on player that knows how to run out. Plus I'm tired of the generalizations ( the pros) it sounds as if saturated is a bit bitter towards pro pool players, guess he didn't want to single anyone out so he just made a generalization with ' the pro's don't know the rules'. My advice to saturated fats is pay less attention to the rule book and practice more ball in hand break shots. I know most of the rules in straight pool, I would say to saturated fats that he may know the the rules as well as any amateur - but if he went up against a seasoned pro in competition he would be shaking in his chair or maybe thinking bout how well he knew the rules.
  
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