Overlaps and Center CB

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
My drawing below may look somewhat confusing at first, but I'll try to explain exactly what the drawing is describing.

........................... 359D5D34-A4FA-4C51-B3EF-00CD9469D3B2.jpg
.

The drawing shows verticle lines as aim points for Center CB. Each line represents a 1/8 ball overlap.

Many folks visualize a ball overlap. The problem by aiming that way is your OB always looks smaller.
The further away the OB the smaller it looks.. and by visualizing a overlap how precise is it actually?
Picking a known aim point for Center CB would be more precise.. The drawing shows OB aim points.

Numbers on top of each line shows a cut angle for that line (The incremental overlapping cut angles)
Those cut angles are within 1.5 degrees of the actual cut angle, but they are just easier to remember.
AzBforums member AtLarge posted actual cut angles in the Main forum. Let's do an OB comparison.

Line number.. Drawing angle.. Actual angle.. Angle difference
1.................... 0....................... 0.................... 0
2.................... 7...................... 7.2................. -.2
3................... 15..................... 14.5............... +.5
4................... 22..................... 22................... 0
5................... 30..................... 30................... 0
6................... 40..................... 38.7................ +1.3
7................... 50..................... 48.6................ +1.4
8................... 60..................... 61................... -1.0
9................... 90..................... 90................... 0

The numbers in my drawing are easier to remember... The short lines under 0, 15, 30, 50 & 90 are ball quarters.

The horizontal fractions, inside the OB, show the 1/8 ball overlaps for each of the 5 corresponding vertical lines.

The ruler (bottom right) shows 5 aim line spacings.. These 5 aim point spacings are used inside & out of the OB.
Aim lines are more precise inside of the OB... Center 0*... OB edge 30*... 1/2 way between 0 &30 is 15 degrees.

You'll need to project center CB & the OB center line to the rail and then compare it to your pocketimg line angle.
When your pocket angle is found just aim your center CB at the known vertical aim line for your pocketing angle.

Another thought that may help when using inside CB spin.. Aim at a vertical line next to the pocketing angle line.

Never aim your CB center beyond the 90* line. :-) ... Play well... Carl

Note:
To hit the 5 outside vertical aim points exactly is hard but it's a good reference for CP2CP aiming.. Inside the OB
aim points are easier because you use the OB center and OB edge as guides to "see" your aim lines 1, 3 and 5.

.
 

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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Very nice. Not complicated, but it's upside down. :grin:

Do you find it difficult to aim say, a tiny bit thinner than #4 (22°), but not as thin as halfway between 4 and 5? I don't. It's really not complicated to fine tune a fractional aim, this one-line aiming process. And it can be very accurate with practice.
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
Very nice. Not complicated, but it's upside down. :grin:

Do you find it difficult to aim say, a tiny bit thinner than #4 (22°), but not as thin as halfway between 4 and 5? I don't. It's really not complicated to fine tune a fractional aim, this one-line aiming process. And it can be very accurate with practice.

Took another picture with a different camera. Both look right side up here. Let me know if it’s ok now.

The aim point always needs tweaking... how much refinement depends on the length of the OB shot.

.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Took another picture with a different camera. Both look right side up here. Let me know if it’s ok now.

The aim point always needs tweaking... how much refinement depends on the length of the OB shot.

.

I like it. All I did was take these fractional aim points and made it possible for a player to know which one to use without guessing or estimating. And going slighty thinner or thicker than an eight is not difficult if a player uses his shaft/tip to gauge the aim, like going a little left or right instead of splitting the center of the tip on the aim point.
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
.
When using a mechanical bridge (rake, crutch, granny stick, cross, spider) or whatever you want to call it..
your aiming is compromised. Both balls are at a distance. You can aim Center CB at the OB lines in post 1

.
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
My drawing below may look somewhat confusing at first, but I'll try to explain exactly what the drawing is describing.

........................... View attachment 473706
.

The drawing shows verticle lines as aim points for Center CB. Each line represents a 1/8 ball overlap.

Many folks visualize a ball overlap. The problem by aiming that way is your OB always looks smaller.
The further away the OB the smaller it looks.. and by visualizing a overlap how precise is it actually?
Picking a known aim point for Center CB would be more precise.. The drawing shows OB aim points.

Numbers on top of each line shows a cut angle for that line (The incremental overlapping cut angles)
Those cut angles are within 1.5 degrees of the actual cut angle, but they are just easier to remember.
AzBforums member AtLarge posted actual cut angles in the Main forum. Let's do an OB comparison.

Line number.. Drawing angle.. Actual angle.. Angle difference
1.................... 0....................... 0.................... 0
2.................... 7...................... 7.2................. -.2
3................... 15..................... 14.5............... +.5
4................... 22..................... 22................... 0
5................... 30..................... 30................... 0
6................... 40..................... 38.7................ +1.3
7................... 50..................... 48.6................ +1.4
8................... 60..................... 61................... -1.0
9................... 90..................... 90................... 0

The numbers in my drawing are easier to remember... The short lines under 0, 15, 30, 50 & 90 are ball quarters.

The horizontal fractions, inside the OB, show the 1/8 ball overlaps for each of the 5 corresponding vertical lines.

The ruler (bottom right) shows 5 aim line spacings.. These 5 aim point spacings are used inside & out of the OB.
Aim lines are more precise inside of the OB... Center 0*... OB edge 30*... 1/2 way between 0 &30 is 15 degrees.

You'll need to project center CB & the OB center line to the rail and then compare it to your pocketimg line angle.
When your pocket angle is found just aim your center CB at the known vertical aim line for your pocketing angle.

Another thought that may help when using inside CB spin.. Aim at a vertical line next to the pocketing angle line.

Never aim your CB center beyond the 90* line. :-) ... Play well... Carl

Note:
To hit the 5 outside vertical aim points exactly is hard but it's a good reference for CP2CP aiming.. Inside the OB
aim points are easier because you use the OB center and OB edge as guides to "see" your aim lines 1, 3 and 5.

.

The 1/8 line dimensions for CCB aiming outside of the OB edge are.....
Line 5.... OB edge
Line 6.... .280
Line 7.... .560
Line 8.... .840
Line 0 or 90*.. 1.120

Use the above references for angles of 30, 40, 50, 60 and 90 degrees.
Click on the attachment above

.
 
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Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
quote- "
Many folks visualize a ball overlap. The problem by aiming that way is your OB always looks smaller.
The further away the OB the smaller it looks.. and by visualizing a overlap how precise is it actually?" end quote

It is just as accurate as if they both looked the same size. The ob doesn't actually get smaller so there is no difference in actual angle.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
quote- "
Many folks visualize a ball overlap. The problem by aiming that way is your OB always looks smaller.
The further away the OB the smaller it looks.. and by visualizing a overlap how precise is it actually?" end quote

It is just as accurate as if they both looked the same size. The ob doesn't actually get smaller so there is no difference in actual angle.

Thinking in terms of overlaps isn't the same as visualizing overlaps. He (Kramden) is not suggesting that a player should aim for a specific overlap visual. He is saying to aim CCB at a specific vertical slice on the ob (or, as with my book, a specific aim point on the ob) that creates the overlap you know you need in order to pocket the ball.

In the traditional 5-line Quarters system, as Stan demonstrated on YouTube, the brain works very well with labels. They are like pull-handles that the brain uses when needed. Each of our senses created unique handles for certain memory recall. Our brain categorizes shots based on the labels we assign, but the memory of any given shot has other handles attached to it also, like how the shot feels when struck, how it looks when executed properly, how it sounds when the tip strikes the CB, when the CB strikes the OB, and when the OB hits the pocket.

When a well-programmed brain gets a snapshot from the eyes that match a certain shot label, the brain automatically grabs every handle associated with the memory of that shot. The more handles the better. So I like labelling the shots as overlaps, or fractions, like 3/4 or 3/8 or 1/2. This type of label provides a better handle to the memory of the shot. Instead of thinking "1" when a 3/4 ball shot is needed, thinking "3/4" adds more to the memory. It adds the image of a 3/4 overlap, giving the label for that shot a corresponding visual, like a custom icon for a folder on your computer. A memory folder containing info on a 1/2 ball shot would be much more organized if it we're labeled "1/2" instead of "2".
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thinking in terms of overlaps isn't the same as visualizing overlaps. He (Kramden) is not suggesting that a player should aim for a specific overlap visual. He is saying to aim CCB at a specific vertical slice on the ob (or, as with my book, a specific aim point on the ob) that creates the overlap you know you need in order to pocket the ball.

In the traditional 5-line Quarters system, as Stan demonstrated on YouTube, the brain works very well with labels. They are like pull-handles that the brain uses when needed. Each of our senses created unique handles for certain memory recall. Our brain categorizes shots based on the labels we assign, but the memory of any given shot has other handles attached to it also, like how the shot feels when struck, how it looks when executed properly, how it sounds when the tip strikes the CB, when the CB strikes the OB, and when the OB hits the pocket.

When a well-programmed brain gets a snapshot from the eyes that match a certain shot label, the brain automatically grabs every handle associated with the memory of that shot. The more handles the better. So I like labelling the shots as overlaps, or fractions, like 3/4 or 3/8 or 1/2. This type of label provides a better handle to the memory of the shot. Instead of thinking "1" when a 3/4 ball shot is needed, thinking "3/4" adds more to the memory. It adds the image of a 3/4 overlap, giving the label for that shot a corresponding visual, like a custom icon for a folder on your computer. A memory folder containing info on a 1/2 ball shot would be much more organized if it we're labeled "1/2" instead of "2".

Thanks for totally missing what I posted, and responding to something totally different. :rolleyes:
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's also good info to know that the contact point on the OB is always halfway between the fractional aim point being used and the OB center as veiwed from center CB.

Aiming at a 3/4 makes the contact point at 7/8. Or aiming at the 1/2 ball puts the contact point at the 3/4. Adds a good check to help ensure the aim point you're choosing looks right.
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
Mr. Kramden, sir...
Do you REALLY actually go through this process when you're in action or is this just something to toss around between the theoreticians?
I'm not trying to be a donkey here.
I just cannot see myself ever reaching a decent skill level if I had to go through all this stuff...this is soooo confusing to my simple old mind.
Again, not trying to cause you trouble or challenge your sincerity.....I'm just a natural born skeptic, I guess.
Do you really do this analysis at the table?
Pete L.
:thumbup:

Pete L. ... I do aim CCB to OB fractions when the balls are close to the pocket. It's not an analysis.
I'll look at the OB pocket angle during my PSR and know exactly where my CCB should be aimed.
If I need sidespin I also know how much my CB deflects. I'll just aim so CCB deflects to hit that line.
If the balls aren't close to the pocket I'll aim differently and pivot. If you read ...... http://sites.google.com/site/poolandbilliard/pool-dogma ... question #13

Sir.... That was my dad's name
.
quote- "
Many folks visualize a ball overlap. The problem by aiming that way is your OB always looks smaller.
The further away the OB the smaller it looks.. and by visualizing a overlap how precise is it actually?" end quote

It is just as accurate as if they both looked the same size. The ob doesn't actually get smaller so there is no difference in actual angle.

Neil.... More than 2000 years ago people thought the sun and moon were the same size. They look the same.
Some Greek dude named Aristarchus proved that to be wrong and the sun is 400 times larger than the moon.
They look the same because the sun is 400 times further away. If the sun edge were closer the angle changes.

Look down some railroad tracks. They get closer the further down the you look... If two same size balls were placed on the
tracks the farthest one would look smaller. The CB aimed at the OB edge angle would change if the furthest one got closer.
I'm not saying the OB actually gets smaller, it just looks smaller. CCB aimed at a single OB point or line compensates for it.

CCB to OB edge is 30 degrees. CCB at 1/8th OB lines always hits the OB at the same spot. The CB edge is a guesstimate.
.
 
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Vorpal Cue

Just galumping back
Silver Member
I've never been comfortable using the overlap method to shoot preferring CP2CP until discovering the pivot technique. I haven't looked at the idea with a bit of math in mind. Looking back over your thread
I realized that the overlap method gives a linear means to select the shot angle. Every 'tick' around circumference will give the same angle.

The best way to explain it without using arc lengths is to think of a bicycle wheel quarter with 10 spokes on it, 0 - 90 degrees spaced 10* apart. The length between the spokes is the same. Now think
of the wheel with 90 spokes on it, the distance around wheel is the same between all the spokes. There's a direct one to one relationship between the 'ticks' equal to one degree.

This has me thinking about using overlap shooting when the balls are less than a diamond apart. An accurate sighting would be easier when the balls appear about the same size. I'm going to try it
out later today and see what develops. Thanks for the thread, I always like to read something that leaves me scratching my head.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pete L. ... I do aim CCB to OB fractions when the balls are close to the pocket. It's not an analysis.
I'll look at the OB pocket angle during my PSR and know exactly where my CCB should be aimed.
If I need sidespin I also know how much my CB deflects. I'll just aim so CCB deflects to hit that line.
If the balls aren't close to the pocket I'll aim differently and pivot. If you read ...... http://sites.google.com/site/poolandbilliard/pool-dogma ... question #13

Sir.... That was my dad's name
.


Neil.... More than 2000 years ago people thought the sun and moon were the same size. They look the same.
Some Greek dude named Aristarchus proved that to be wrong and the sun is 400 times larger than the moon.
They look the same because the sun is 400 times further away. If the sun edge were closer the angle changes.

Look down some railroad tracks. They get closer the further down the you look... If two same size balls were placed on the
tracks the farthest one would look smaller. The CB aimed at the OB edge angle would change if the furthest one got closer.
I'm not saying the OB actually gets smaller.. It just looks smaller. CCB aimed at a single OB point or line, components for it.

CCB to OB edge is 30 degrees. CCB at 1/8th OB lines always hits the OB at the same spot. The CB edge is a guesstimate.
.

All I'm going to say, is think about what you wrote to me. ;)
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
.........

Look down some railroad tracks. They get closer the further down the you look... If two same size balls were placed on the tracks the farthest one would look smaller. The CB aimed at the OB edge angle would change if the furthest one got closer. I'm not saying the OB actually gets smaller.. It just looks smaller. CCB aimed at a single OB point or line, compensates for it.

CCB to OB edge is 30 degrees. CCB at 1/8th OB lines always hits the OB at the same spot. The CB edge is a guesstimate.
.

Exactly. There are two ways to look at it:

1. Let's say we have a CB and an OB separated by 6 diamonds. As we move the CB closer to the OB in a straight line between the centers of the two balls (like train tracks), yet keep our aim point at the 1/2 ball edge, the resulting shot angle is still going to be 30° every time. However, since we are staying on the center to center line (instead of that first CCB to OB edge line) our perspective of the shot slighty shifts as we get closer to the OB, causing the 30° shot angle to shift also. Between about 1 diamond and 6 diamonds the change in perspective when viewing the ob edge, is less than around 2°. But this change in perspective quickly climbs from to 10° or more as the CB location is within a few inches of the OB.

2. If we keep the CB on the CCB to OB edge line, the aim line, our perspective of the shot angle remains the same regardless of how close we move the CB toward the OB. Once again, the smaller looking ball doesn't change a thing.
 
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Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All I'm going to say, is think about what you wrote to me. ;)

OK, you gave it a little thought. So, Ralph or Brian, answer me this:

If I aim my cue center cb to center ob at a distance, will cb edge still line up to ob edge visually or not?
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
OK, you gave it a little thought. So, Ralph or Brian, answer me this:

If I aim my cue center cb to center ob at a distance, will cb edge still line up to ob edge visually or not?

Lol. Of course not. Not if you are focusing on CCB. But from a standing position your eyes may connect the edges. thumbup:.
 
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Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
OK, you gave it a little thought. So, Ralph or Brian, answer me this:

If I aim my cue center cb to center ob at a distance, will cb edge still line up to ob edge visually or not?

No... If you aim CB edge to OB edge at a distance, will center CB line up with center OB visually?

Center CB aimed at 1/4 OB line goes 15 degrees. CB edge to 3/4 OB, at any distance, will go 15*.
I find it easier to aim CCB at distant OB points, than to judge the CB edge and exact OB overlaps.

.
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
My drawing below may look somewhat confusing at first, but I'll try to explain exactly what the drawing is describing.

A drawing showing known OB aim points for Center CB aiming......... View attachment 473706 <<<

The drawing shows verticle lines as aim points for Center CB. Each line represents a 1/8 ball overlap.

Many folks visualize a ball overlap. The problem by aiming that way is your OB always looks smaller.
The further away the OB the smaller it looks.. and by visualizing a overlap how precise is it actually?
Picking known aim points for Center CB would be more precise.. The drawing shows OB aim points.

Numbers on top of each line shows a cut angle for that line (The incremental overlapping cut angles)
Those cut angles are within 1.5 degrees of the actual cut angle, but they are just easier to remember.
AzBforums member AtLarge posted actual cut angles in the Main forum. Let's do an OB comparison.

Line number.. Drawing angle.. Actual angle.. Angle difference... see drawing in attachment above ^
1.................... 0....................... 0................... 0........ Full ball
2.................... 7...................... 7.2................. -.2
3................... 15..................... 14.5............... +.5..... Quarter ball
4................... 22..................... 22.................. 0
5................... 30..................... 30.................. 0........ Quarter ball
6................... 40..................... 38.7............... +1.3
7................... 50..................... 48.6............... +1.4... Quarter ball
8................... 60..................... 61.................. -1.0
9................... 90..................... 90.................. 0........ Quarter ball

Numbers in the attachment above are easy to remember. Short lines under 0, 15, 30, 50 & 90 are ball quarters.
Edit: See the "fractional ball aiming" graph below for all of the in between fractional angles.

The horizontal fractions, inside the OB, show the 1/8 ball overlaps for each of the 5 corresponding vertical lines.

The ruler (bottom right) shows 5 aim line spacings.. These 5 aim point spacings are used inside & out of the OB.
Aim lines are more precise inside of the OB... Center 0*... OB edge 30*... 1/2 way between 0 &30 is 15 degrees.

You'll need to project center CB & the OB center line to the rail and then compare it to your pocketimg line angle.
When your pocket angle is found just aim your center CB at the known vertical aim line for your pocketing angle.

Another thought that may help when using inside CB spin.. Aim at a vertical line next to the pocketing angle line.

Never aim your CB center beyond the 90* line. :-) ... Play well... Carl

Note:
To hit the 5 outside vertical aim points exactly is hard but it's a good reference for CP2CP aiming.. Inside the OB
aim points are easier because you use the OB center and OB edge as guides to "see" your aim lines 1, 3 and 5.
If the CB center is outside of the OB edge, the CB edge can align to the same OB aim points used for CB center.

Fractional ball aiming graph for 1/4 ball (.) and the 1/8 ball (.) aim points for center CB... and for the fractional aim points located between them.... image.jpeg
 
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