True Workings of Pivot-style Aiming

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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I've never been a user of pivot-style aiming, other than using BHE, which is more of an aiming compensation than an aiming technique. But since many players have found pivot aiming techniques to be effective, including a couple of personal friends, I wanted to figure out why or how pivot aiming works for them.

What I found was very interesting, and I believe it's good information for anyone else that might be a curious thinker. Many players don't care why or how particular results happen, as long as it works when they do it correctly then they are 100% content with simply working on doing it correctly more often. However, if you'd like to know exactly how pivots function with regard to cut angles, this video could provide the insight needed to shorten your learning curve and help you understand pivot effects.

https://youtu.be/rilAhGzSH10
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
I've never been a user of pivot-style aiming, other than using BHE, which is more of an aiming compensation than an aiming technique. But since many players have found pivot aiming techniques to be effective, including a couple of personal friends, I wanted to figure out why or how pivot aiming works for them.

What I found was very interesting, and I believe it's good information for anyone else that might be a curious thinker. Many players don't care why or how particular results happen, as long as it works when they do it correctly then they are 100% content with simply working on doing it correctly more often. However, if you'd like to know exactly how pivots function with regard to cut angles, this video could provide the insight needed to shorten your learning curve and help you understand pivot effects.

https://youtu.be/rilAhGzSH10


You're making progress in open mindedness and willingness to experiment. Good for you in doing it. Here's your next assignment for a video.

Do the same thing but this time start from CCB and pivot to outside. I'm interested in what your curiosity deduces and how you get it to work. Think back to Little Mike.
I already know how to get it to work. But your statement above in bold describes where I am and now there's nothing complicated. Just see it and do it using certain minimal visual references.
 

BC21

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You're making progress in open mindedness and willingness to experiment. Good for you in doing it. Here's your next assignment for a video.

Do the same thing but this time start from CCB and pivot to outside. I'm interested in what your curiosity deduces and how you get it to work. Think back to Little Mike.
I already know how to get it to work. But your statement above in bold describes where I am and now there's nothing complicated. Just see it and do it using certain minimal visual references.

That's a lot trickier because of cb squirt, which varies depending on speed, cue tip, shaft deflection, etc..., and also because of CIT being different depending on ball condition, speed, shot angle, humidity, etc... I looked at that years ago and couldn't get anything down on paper back then to show exactly what happens. I was doing it then to hopefully develop an exact fractional aiming compensation when using BHE. But too many variables were at play and it was easier to physically figure it out with my specific cue by shooting many many shots. Still, I think it would be great to have a chart that showed exactly where to aim (using face of object ball aim points) anytime you were applying a 1/2 tip or a full tip of BHE, but I dropped it.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
That's a lot trickier because of cb squirt, which varies depending on speed, cue tip, shaft deflection, etc...,

There won't be much squirt with an angled cue starting from CCB to either 1/2 tip to full tip of outside. Tip size matters and so does shaft deflection but not a whole bunch.

and also because of CIT being different depending on ball condition, speed, shot angle, humidity, etc...

Don't go so overboard in your thinking. It's far too much going on in your skull. The next thing you'll be dragging into it is the Coriolis Force, or wind from a fart. Immaterial except for the flinch brought on by the fart when the stench invades your nostrils. :eek:

I looked at that years ago and couldn't get anything down on paper back then to show exactly what happens.

Forget it on paper. Just do it for results.

I was doing it then to hopefully develop an exact fractional aiming compensation when using BHE. But too many variables were at play and it was easier to physically figure it out with my specific cue by shooting many many shots.

Colin Colenso did it years ago and has it on paper somewhere in the depths of posting history. I think it's totally flawed based on his cue, tip, and possible shooting flaws that aren't perfectly robotic.

Still, I think it would be great to have a chart that showed exactly where to aim (using face of object ball aim points) anytime you were applying a 1/2 tip or a full tip of BHE, but I dropped it.

Try it again. I think you're in a better frame of mind and have more desire. HINT: Aim points are CCB to COB pre pivot; halfway between center and edge on OB pre pivot, and edge of OB pre pivot.. You're on the right path with 1/2 tip or full tip but you can also go a little further than full tip. Take it from there with nothing else complicating your thinking and actions.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member

Something I forgot to ask you in my first post about all of the different angled shots on your video.

When you were lining up for what you said was a 1/2 ball hit, were your eyes, head and body viewing it from directly behind the center of the CB to edge of the OB or were your eyes, head and body viewing it from the inside OFFSET position to the edge of the OB along with cue tip?
 

BC21

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The maximum distance to the 90° tangent line where the pivot causes the CB to miss the OB can be calculated as follows when using basic Quarter references from ccb:

Referencing center OB and then doing a 1/2 tip offset pivot....Max Distance = 2.25/sin(1.4°)

Using 3/4 ref....Max = 1.6875/sin(1.4°)

Using 1/2 ball ref...Max = 1.125/sin(1.4°)

If you use a shorter or longer bridge length than 9", the 1.4° pivot angle will change, which also changes the max distance to the 90° tangent.

1/2 tip pivot angle = atan[(tip diameter ÷ 2)/(bridge length + 1.125")]

So using a 13mm (0.512") shaft would get these pivot angles:

4" bridge = 2.9°
6" bridge = 2.1°
8" bridge = 1.6°
10" bridge = 1.3°
12" bridge = 1.1°
14" bridge = 1.0°

This diagram shows where the OB's are being targeted to the 90° tangent line when using a 1/2 tip offset pivot with an initial center OB ref point. If a pocket happens to be at one of the yellow circles, or between the ob and a yellow circle, the ball finds the pocket before it finds the tangent line. If not, pick a different reference instead of using center OB. Or use a shorter or longer bridge to manipulate the angle as needed. A thinner reference will bring the tangent line closer, which also brings those yellow circles closer. A shorter bridge length will do the same thing, bring the tangent line closer and produce thinner cut angles, but keeping a consistent bridge is best, then you only have to estimate a good ref point at the OB based on where the pocket is. You can use finer ref points than the basic quarters to help increase accuracy.

picture.php
 

BC21

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Something I forgot to ask you in my first post about all of the different angled shots on your video.

When you were lining up for what you said was a 1/2 ball hit, were your eyes, head and body viewing it from directly behind the center of the CB to edge of the OB or were your eyes, head and body viewing it from the inside OFFSET position to the edge of the OB along with cue tip?

Strictly viewing edge of ob from behind ccb, then manually moving my bridge hand and cue 1/2 a tip to the inside, then pivoting back to ccb from than perspective. I realize that Shiskabob, the way my buddy does it, involves lining up 1/2 tip inside ccb straight to the ref point, splitting the tip on the ref point.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Strictly viewing edge of ob from behind ccb, then manually moving my bridge hand and cue 1/2 a tip to the inside, then pivoting back to ccb from than perspective. I realize that Shiskabob, the way my buddy does it, involves lining up 1/2 tip inside ccb straight to the ref point, splitting the tip on the ref point.

His way is the correct way to do it. 1/2 tip can also be expanded to 1 full tip offset when called for.

You have to realize something Brian, when you align from the offset position like he does/I do, you're centers and edges are different by a few ticks than the other way.

What do I mean? Place a ball 6-8" from the side pocket and stand on the other side of the table directly behind it on the other side pocket so it's straight in. No CB needed. Shift your feet 12" toward the corner pocket and now look at the center of the OB. It's a different center and a different edge than previously. No longer going straight into the pocket.

Keep shifting your feet all the way down to the corner pocket and observe the center of the OB and new line. The center keeps changing as does the edge. It is NOT the original center or what would be perceived as the contact point for those different shot angles after moving. That spot basically doesn't exist any more other than the original straight in point. Do you follow this?

This is the essence of Hal's systems for aiming to centers and edges. Do it, think about it, and let it sink in because it will come together for you better.

Forget the parallel shifting. You do it right up front with the eyes, body and cue in the offset position.
 
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BC21

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His way is the correct way to do it. 1/2 tip can also be expanded to 1 full tip offset when called for.

You have to realize something Brian, when you align from the offset position like he does/I do, you're centers and edges are different by a few ticks than the other way.

What do I mean? Place a ball 6-8" from the side pocket and stand on the other side of the table directly behind it on the other side pocket so it's straight in. No CB needed. Shift your feet 12" toward the corner pocket and now look at the center of the OB. It's a different center and a different edge than previously. No longer going straight into the pocket.

Keep shifting your feet all the way down to the corner pocket and observe the center of the OB and new line. The center keeps changing as does the edge. It is NOT the original center or what would be perceived as the contact point for those different shot angles after moving. That spot basically doesn't exist any more other than the original straight in point. Do you follow this?

This is the essence of Hal's systems for aiming to centers and edges. Do it, think about it, and let it sink in because it will come together for you better.

Forget the parallel shifting. You do it right up front with the eyes, body and cue in the offset position.

I understand what you mean. It's the change in visual perspective. The same thing applies when your nose is directly behind the CB and you're looking through CCB to a point on the OB. Move the OB closer or farther away and the perspective changes slightly. You'll still be looking through ccb to the same ref on the OB, but that visual line is now going through the CB at different points on the surface of the ball, as well as hitting a different point on the surface of the OB.

Concerning shishkabob, since the pivot originates from a line that goes from a ccb offset to a specific reference on the OB, instead of from a line that is parallel to a ccb-to-ob-ref line, the resulting cut will just be a few degrees thinner. The OB will still track toward that 90° tangent line. And if you use the appropriate ob ref point, the ball could hit a pocket on its way to that tangent line.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Concerning shishkabob, since the pivot originates from a line that goes from a ccb offset to a specific reference on the OB, instead of from a line that is parallel to a ccb-to-ob-ref line, the resulting cut will just be a few degrees thinner.

And Stan has phrased this 1000 times or more in a little different fashion which has probably gone zinging over most heads.

Can you quote what he said or come close to how he phrases it?
 

BC21

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Equal distance shifts for inside CB pivots... Same distance as OB center to OB contact point.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=409940&1453742848

.

That's a neat image. I've always found the contact point difficult to visualize after I get back behind the CB. And it looks like the pivot point would be tricky to visualize also, the way it would change in accordance with the distance between the cb and ob. Still, probably a nifty tool for shots where distance between the balls is a about a diamond or two.
 

BC21

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And Stan has phrased this 1000 times or more in a little different fashion which has probably gone zinging over most heads.

Can you quote what he said or come close to how he phrases it?

No. I can think of a lot of what he's said, but nothing here rings a bell.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
No. I can think of a lot of what he's said, but nothing here rings a bell.

Concerning shishkabob, since the pivot originates from a line that goes from a ccb offset to a specific reference on the OB, instead of from a line that is parallel to a ccb-to-ob-ref line, the resulting cut will just be a few degrees thinner.

Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post

And Stan has phrased this 1000 times or more in a little different fashion which has probably gone zinging over most heads.

Can you quote what he said or come close to how he phrases it?



5-18-2013 - POST #46 - http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=320245&highlight=built+overcut&page=4


6-26-2013 - POST #25 - http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=4233378&highlight=built+overcut#post4233378


1-22-2016 - POSTS #21 & #22 - http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5434741&highlight=built+overcut#post5434741
 
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Mkindsv

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have never used a pivot system. Chances are good that I never will. I have never played with someone who uses a pivot system. I have played with many great players, I always ask questions of their game when I get a chance. I have never heard pivoting mentioned except for in this forum. Admittedly, I do not immerse myself into the community trying to find new and fantastic aiming systems. I personally aim relationally, there are three factors I look at when I aim. The relationship between the cue ball and object ball, the natural position acquired from a center cue ball stroke delivery, and finally the position I need to achieve which is different from the position achieved by a center cue ball hit.

I have out of curiosity attempted a few shots ( probably less than a couple hundred) with a few of the pivoting methods. To my brain, the shots line up good, but then you have to change the shot dependent upon what position you need to attain. So while playing around with this it was my decision to never use a pivot system, as it would be many years of retraining until I could shoot half as effective as I do now.

To each their own, but for me it will always be hamb.

If I ever do run across someone pivoting on every shot, I can tell you one thing, it'll be fun to watch because win or lose, the bet will be high.
 
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SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
I have never used a pivot system. Chances are good that I never will. I have never played with someone who uses a pivot system. I have played with many great players, I always ask questions of their game when I get a chance. I have never heard pivoting mentioned except for in this forum. Admittedly, I do not immerse myself into the community trying to find new and fantastic aiming systems. I personally aim relationally, there are three factors I look at when I aim. The relationship between the cue ball and object ball, the natural position acquired from a center cue ball stroke delivery, and finally the position I need to achieve which is different from the position achieved by a center cue ball hit.

I have out of curiosity attempted a few shots ( probably less than a couple hundred) with a few of the pivoting methods. To my brain, the shots line up good, but then you have to change the shot dependent upon what position you need to attain. So while playing around with this it was my decision to never use a pivot system, as it would be many years of retraining until I could shoot half as effective as I do now.

To each their own, but for me it will always be hamb.

If I ever do run across someone pivoting on every shot, I can tell you one thing, it'll be fun to watch because win or lose, the bet will be high.

Would you like to play a real high bet with Stevie Moore or Landon?

Since you know so little about pivoting, what you really don't know is there is no manual pivoting done for you to see. It's done visually and you could end up driving home in your underwear. Make sure they're clean with no nicotine stains. :D

A lot of guys pivot, but they do it for BHE (backhand English) Very common but maybe you only use parallel.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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Silver Member
Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post

And Stan has phrased this 1000 times or more in a little different fashion which has probably gone zinging over most heads.

Can you quote what he said or come close to how he phrases it?


5-18-2013 - POST #46 - http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=320245&highlight=built+overcut&page=4


6-26-2013 - POST #25 - http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=4233378&highlight=built+overcut#post4233378


1-22-2016 - POSTS #21 & #22 - http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5434741&highlight=built+overcut#post5434741


Ah....the overcut. Well, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not saying a pivot gives you a nice convenient overcut. It gives you a specific cut angle that sends the OB to a tangent line a few away, and if you use the appropriate pivot and OB ref point you can make it work out so that the pocket ends up between the OB and the exact place on that tangent line where the OB is actually headed.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Ah....the overcut. Well, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not saying a pivot gives you a nice convenient overcut.

Oh but you are. Here's what you said: "Concerning shishkabob, since the pivot originates from a line that goes from a ccb OFFSET to a specific reference on the OB, instead of from a line that is parallel to a ccb-to-ob-ref line, THE RESULTING CUTwill just be a few degrees THINNER."

A pivot by itself doesn't give you an overcut, what we were talking about is the INSIDE OFFSET pivoting back to CENTER which is the CORRECT VISUALS AND SETUP FOR AN OVERCUT.

YOU SAID ABOVE, "THE RESULTING CUT WILL JUST BE A FEW DEGREES THINNER".

THINNER=OVERCUT.
 
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Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
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Equal distance shifts for inside CB pivots... Same distance as OB center to OB contact point.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=409940&1453742848.

That's a neat image. I've always found the contact point difficult to visualize after I get back behind the CB. And it looks like the pivot point would be tricky to visualize also, the way it would change in accordance with the distance between the cb and ob. Still, probably a nifty tool for shots where distance between the balls is a about a diamond or two.

Brian.. Not as difficult as you might think.. Line the cue center CB and pointed at center OB for alignment.
Pick out the contact point distance from the OB center (close as possible) and then parallel shift your cue.

The cue should point at the same spot ( opposite of contact point ) on both CB and OB to keep alignment.
The cue would aim through the CB, and aligned to a OB point the same distance but opposite OB center.

I'll always pivot the cue from the inside of the OB cut angle and will never pivot from outside my cut angle.
Pivoting from inside the cut angle, makes finding the OB contact point much easier to see at all distances.

Cue pivot points can change with ball distance. I find it easy to compensate. The cue may not reach CCB.

.
 
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