Mosconi Caras

14-1StraightMan

High Run 127
Silver Member
Thumbs Up

Dennis: that is the video that my mentor Roy Kinman does the play by play.
Roy had gave me a copy of that match a long time ago. It is very cool to hear Roy talk about stories from back then & the story of that match (why Mosconi was so mad during the match). I know everyone will enjoy watching that video when you post it.
 
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dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
Dennis: that is the video that my mentor Roy Kinman does the play by play.
Roy had gave me a copy of that match a long time ago. It is very cool to hear Roy talk about stories for back then & the story of that match (why Mosconi was so mad during the match). I know everyone will enjoy watching that video when you post it.

Cool! You're going to have to give us the story after a few have watched it. It should be up in a few minutes. It is being processed right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JCdJ08_M3Y&feature=youtu.be
 

mnhighrunlist

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dennis

Thanks so much for posting this. I love old tyme pool and Jimmy C really did a smack down on Willie. In fact this was the only video matches I saw Jimmy Caras play in.
 

bud green

Dolley and Django
Silver Member
This is the one with the all time worst referee in 14.1 history...the looks Mosconi gives this moron are classic.

The speed of play by these two is scary.
 

wigglybridge

14.1 straight pool!
Silver Member
i would assume the referee was put up to that by Wide World of Sports; there isn't Anything that happened on those shows that wasn't heavily scripted from the top.
 

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would like to express my thanks to Dennis not only for this match but for the many wonderful contributions he has made to the enjoyment for us all

It is a pleasure to read or watch the videos that you have unselfishly provided us over the past years.

If you will be so kind as to send me your mailing address,I would like to send you a small gift of gratitude for your contributions for us all.

Thanks from those of us who have enjoyed the fruits of your labours

Please pm the address to me

dean
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
I would like to express my thanks to Dennis not only for this match but for the many wonderful contributions he has made to the enjoyment for us all

It is a pleasure to read or watch the videos that you have unselfishly provided us over the past years.

If you will be so kind as to send me your mailing address,I would like to send you a small gift of gratitude for your contributions for us all.

Thanks from those of us who have enjoyed the fruits of your labours

Please pm the address to me

dean

Wow dean that is a very nice gesture !!!

Very nice, and well deserved !

-Steve
 

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
I would like to express my thanks to Dennis not only for this match but for the many wonderful contributions he has made to the enjoyment for us all

It is a pleasure to read or watch the videos that you have unselfishly provided us over the past years.

If you will be so kind as to send me your mailing address,I would like to send you a small gift of gratitude for your contributions for us all.

Thanks from those of us who have enjoyed the fruits of your labours

Please pm the address to me

dean

Dean : That is very nice of you, but I wouldn't feel right.

If, on the other hand you wanted to donate something to the Derby City Straight Pool Challenge or even to Charlie's 2012 World Straight Pool Tournament, that would be greatly appreciated.
 

RedEyeJedi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for another great vid. This is as close as I've ever seen to the fast-playing Willie of legend, he's nearly as fast as Earl at one point. Just a shame it wasn't one of his better days. Maybe someday, somewhere, I'll find a video of that.
 

Raggedy Andy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What a wonderful video. Not just the match......but the faces in the crowd. I was only able to identify two; Jimmy Moore, with his flat top, and Don Watson. I am sure there are more that would be familiar to some. Thanks for posting this.:smile:
 

14-1StraightMan

High Run 127
Silver Member
Inside Story

(Wigglybridge) is correct about the referee. That was all done for TV per Wide World of Sports.
The reason why Mosconi was so mad. He wanted to play a match up to 250 and Wide World of Sports said no b/c of TV time the day of the match. Roy has always told me that Caras would beat Willie in short race matches but Willie was better in the longer matches.
Prior to the match being set up. Wide World of Sports had asked Mosconi & Caras who they wanted to do the play by play and they both stated Roy.
Roy, Willie, Caras & all the wives were all good friends through out the years. True story.
 
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stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
This is just my humble opinion !!

I dont think back in the day they called that a foul. i think they were a lot more lax back then about all those particulars.

of course i could be wrong
-Steve
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm guessing the video is from about 1962. In 1962 the rules for pocket billiards were confusing. From the 1962 BCA rule book:

page 29 under general rules for pocket billiards:
Player forfeits one point for:....
6. For striking cue ball twice on same stroke.
page 45 under the rules for 14.1 continuous:
Push Shots: A push shot made with one continuous stroke of the cue is legal, whether the cue ball is frozen to an object ball or not. Foul stroke is penalized by loss of one point. The referee is the sole judge in ruling on a push shot.
Frozen Cue Ball: When the cue ball is in contact with an object ball, player may play directly at object ball in contact with cue ball, provided that the object ball is moved and the cue ball strikes a cushion, or provided the object ball which is in contact with the cue ball is driven to a cushion. Failure to comply with this requirement is a foul. Penalty: loss of one point.
The Push Shot rule implies that even if the cue ball is 4 inches from the object ball, if you arrange your follow through to hit the cue ball a second time, the shot is legal. (Or even 10 inches for those with freak follow-thoughs.) This contradicts the general rule. Further, the Frozen Ball rule kind of implies that if you are frozen to an object ball, only one of those two balls can achieve the cushion contact requirement.

In any case, the referee called the shot fair or at least did not call a foul. I think the rules gave no guidance to the referee to help him judge such shots.

The rule was the same in the 1963 rule book, but in 1965 it was changed to:
(page 45)
Push or Shove Shots:
If in the opinion of the referee, the player has pushed or shoved the cue ball with his cue, it is a foul. Penalty: Loss of one point. For all practical purposes, a push shot is one in which the cue time remains in contact with cue ball after cue ball strikes object ball or when cue tip again contacts cue ball after cue ball strikes object ball.​
This wording was borrowed from the general rules of carom billiards. The foul for double hits was still in the general rules as was the frozen ball rule.

This means that in 1965 the rules became essentially the same as the current rules. In 1967 the Push or Shove Shots rule was deleted from the text. This is unfortunate in that it left open the case where the cue ball is very close to the object ball so that there is only one tip-to-cue-ball contact but the action is the same as a double hit.
By 1992 the double hit rule has migrated to (page 38):
15. Fouls by Double Hits. It is a foul if the cue ball is struck more than once on a shot by the cue tip. [which is OK, but it then goes on to say ... ] If, in the referee's judgement, the cue ball has left initial contact with the cue tip and then is struck a second time in the course of the same stroke it shall be a foul. [...]​
This means that if the referee believes the tip remains on the cue ball for several inches, a double hit on a ball an inch away is legal. In fact, the tip remains on the cue ball for only a few millimeters of travel.

In 1993, the rule was changed again, and the "chalk-width separation" guideline was inserted. I think that guideline was destructive. Or at least confusing.
 
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