LD Shaft decision -Long

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
reposted from https://www.facebook.com/groups/Outsville/permalink/373111256147405/

Low Deflection vs Standard Maple Shafts....

Around 1990 Predator hit the market with a new verse to Bob Meucci's low deflection song..... The new verse was arguably clearer and it was definitely louder.....

LD was and still is advertised as higher spin with less cueball deflection for a given tip offset.... Basically the spin argument has been contested from time to time but it is an agreed upon fact the LD shafts reduce cueball squirt when using english.....

The fact that this happens and it reduces one of the variables in pool shots using sidespin is therefore thought to increase the speed in which a new comer can progress to being a better player.

But what about those of us that are getting long in the tooth? We started out with solid maple shafts. We learned to compensate for english thru trial and error and different techniques. For the long in the tooth brigade shoud there be an concerted effort to make the change or will there be any improvements to be had?

Being part of the long in the tooth brigade I am going to explain why I won't use standard maple shafts anymore and am strictly on the LD shaft band wagon....

In the old days getting a new cue was always a pleasure and a pain. Every maple shaft has it's own deflection properties it would usually take a little while to adjust before you were ready to go into battle. Best part was buying a new cue with 2 shafts and finding out they played differently...

As I became a better player I started having a better understanding of what I wanted in a cue as for playing characteristics... I always started out heavy on taper and had my choice of tip and ferrule.. My cuemaker would then let me hit the cue and I would have them reduce the taper or move the pinch point.. Heaven forbid if we went to far because there was no going back and adding material...

Well there was an option but I was unaware of it until I got my first LD shaft....

When I got my first Predator it was 1990... I was like a kid on christmas when it came in the mail from ordering it online...

And then it began.... The first predators really weren't a lot different than my old trusty Meucci I had been playing with for several years... They still had a little deflection so I could still work the ball.. What I liked was the new shafts wouldn't ever seem to cross me up since the shot that small amount striaghter when using english. I would play with the 314 for the next 15 years...

In 2005 OB hit the market... It just so happened I had ran out of 314 shafts or original predators to lay my hands on in my area... There were a ton of those first edition cues that were sold and I managed for 15 years to find them locally whenever I felt that I had worn out the shaft I was playing with... I usually got about 2 years of play before the noodled out on me and started to feel like maybe the glue seems had had enough....

I ordered one of the new OB shafts to match up to a Schon I had been using that the 314 had bit the dust on... I made a mad dash to the pool room when they called me and told me the pro shop had my shaft in... I screwed the shaft onto my trusted Schon and proceeded to miss balls for several days until I tossed the shaft in the closet.. It's still there BTW....

I went ahead and ordered a new z2 shaft thinking since it was a predator product it might be right up my alley... I sold it for half of what I paid for it within a month.... Around this time I met a local cuemaker... He agreed to build me a cue and he would make a shaft that suited me...

After several failed attempts we gave up on the idea of finding a taper/pinch in a traditional maple shaft that was going to suit me so at my behest he set about making a LD shaft that I was going to be happy with... He would change the sizes and depth of the bores and change the materials used on the front end and after several iterations he fell on a shaft that suited me perfectly...

OF course he refused to stop there and ended up going way lower in deflection than I desired and he makes one heck of a LD shaft... It's on par with the best on the market and they are completely useless to me...

What is not useless to me was the trip.. As the shafts evolved I came to understand that I could add weight back to the end of the shaft by changing the ferrule materials or by adding large carbon fiber pads under the tips... I found out that going LD and working back this way that I could easily tune any LD shaft to play the way I wanted with just a little help from a decent repair shop/installer...

No more worries about adjusting to new shafts. I can order an engineered shaft from OB, the pro works well for me, and with a few minor changes I have a shaft that I can depend on that matches my mind's eye for what to expect when I apply english.. When this shaft becomes dust I can order a replacement and have the same changes done and I get the same shaft again..

SO For me the BIGGEST benefit to LD technology is consistency... Engineered shafts rolling off the line identical by the thousands... I am long in the tooth and I don't want to rewire my brain. I want to be abe to depend on my equipment doing exactly what it has done for years...

SO for those of you with LD shafts tossed in the closet... Dig them out... Carry them to your local repair guy and try a larger ferrule or a different ferrule material. Once you fall on the combination that works for you you will likely be set for the rest of your playing careers.... No adjustments necesary to your game just a few sheckles out of your wallet and you will be right back in high cotton....

Chris
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
That's certainly interesting. It sounds like you prefer quite a thin shaft (OB Pro at 11.75mm) but one that produces a bit more squirt than the OB Pro. Are your mods strictly to the ferrule (longer and different material, with no pad needed) and not to the taper at all? Is your preferred ferrule material something that is sure to be around for a long time (or maybe you have stocked up on it)?

I wonder whether anyone has done any tests to see just how consistent a particular brand/model of LD shaft is.

P.S. Predator was experimenting with shafts earlier than 1994, but I'm not aware of any hitting the market until then.
 

scsuxci

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I enjoyed the read but I find with LD shafts, changing tips are fine but
chopping ferrules on them would probably go against the years of
testing by which there decision was made to use that material in the first
place.
To experiment on maple shafts is the opposite. Changing ferrules is no
problem and runs no risk in offsetting anything that can happen with
spliced shafts.
I'm seeing more guys nowadays willing to except a little more deflection
for more''feel''.
Personally I've always believed that when I hear guys say ''dead hit'' I
think, just change the tip. Tip and joint play a huge part in feel to me.
If you've noticed the LD shafts that have the lowest deflection had less
feel.Thats the sacrifice people have to make if they want a really low
deflective shaft.
My experience has taught me that if a shaft has high deflection it will
have a great feel but to difficult to play those key shots you run
into during a serious game. For me, my best success has been with Predator
even though I've tried out many many others.
For me trying new things are fun and its like a test of will to figure the shafts
out but if your serious about the game then trying new things can really
screw with your mind.
I've seen many guys game start plunging down the toilet cause there always
at battle with there equipment and not thinking about there game.
This game is fun but can drive ya looney:)
 

naji

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
reposted from https://www.facebook.com/groups/Outsville/permalink/373111256147405/

Low Deflection vs Standard Maple Shafts....

Around 1990 Predator hit the market with a new verse to Bob Meucci's low deflection song..... The new verse was arguably clearer and it was definitely louder.....

LD was and still is advertised as higher spin with less cueball deflection for a given tip offset.... Basically the spin argument has been contested from time to time but it is an agreed upon fact the LD shafts reduce cueball squirt when using english.....

The fact that this happens and it reduces one of the variables in pool shots using sidespin is therefore thought to increase the speed in which a new comer can progress to being a better player.

But what about those of us that are getting long in the tooth? We started out with solid maple shafts. We learned to compensate for english thru trial and error and different techniques. For the long in the tooth brigade shoud there be an concerted effort to make the change or will there be any improvements to be had?

Being part of the long in the tooth brigade I am going to explain why I won't use standard maple shafts anymore and am strictly on the LD shaft band wagon....

In the old days getting a new cue was always a pleasure and a pain. Every maple shaft has it's own deflection properties it would usually take a little while to adjust before you were ready to go into battle. Best part was buying a new cue with 2 shafts and finding out they played differently...

As I became a better player I started having a better understanding of what I wanted in a cue as for playing characteristics... I always started out heavy on taper and had my choice of tip and ferrule.. My cuemaker would then let me hit the cue and I would have them reduce the taper or move the pinch point.. Heaven forbid if we went to far because there was no going back and adding material...

Well there was an option but I was unaware of it until I got my first LD shaft....

When I got my first Predator it was 1990... I was like a kid on christmas when it came in the mail from ordering it online...

And then it began.... The first predators really weren't a lot different than my old trusty Meucci I had been playing with for several years... They still had a little deflection so I could still work the ball.. What I liked was the new shafts wouldn't ever seem to cross me up since the shot that small amount striaghter when using english. I would play with the 314 for the next 15 years...

In 2005 OB hit the market... It just so happened I had ran out of 314 shafts or original predators to lay my hands on in my area... There were a ton of those first edition cues that were sold and I managed for 15 years to find them locally whenever I felt that I had worn out the shaft I was playing with... I usually got about 2 years of play before the noodled out on me and started to feel like maybe the glue seems had had enough....

I ordered one of the new OB shafts to match up to a Schon I had been using that the 314 had bit the dust on... I made a mad dash to the pool room when they called me and told me the pro shop had my shaft in... I screwed the shaft onto my trusted Schon and proceeded to miss balls for several days until I tossed the shaft in the closet.. It's still there BTW....

I went ahead and ordered a new z2 shaft thinking since it was a predator product it might be right up my alley... I sold it for half of what I paid for it within a month.... Around this time I met a local cuemaker... He agreed to build me a cue and he would make a shaft that suited me...

After several failed attempts we gave up on the idea of finding a taper/pinch in a traditional maple shaft that was going to suit me so at my behest he set about making a LD shaft that I was going to be happy with... He would change the sizes and depth of the bores and change the materials used on the front end and after several iterations he fell on a shaft that suited me perfectly...

OF course he refused to stop there and ended up going way lower in deflection than I desired and he makes one heck of a LD shaft... It's on par with the best on the market and they are completely useless to me...

What is not useless to me was the trip.. As the shafts evolved I came to understand that I could add weight back to the end of the shaft by changing the ferrule materials or by adding large carbon fiber pads under the tips... I found out that going LD and working back this way that I could easily tune any LD shaft to play the way I wanted with just a little help from a decent repair shop/installer...

No more worries about adjusting to new shafts. I can order an engineered shaft from OB, the pro works well for me, and with a few minor changes I have a shaft that I can depend on that matches my mind's eye for what to expect when I apply english.. When this shaft becomes dust I can order a replacement and have the same changes done and I get the same shaft again..

SO For me the BIGGEST benefit to LD technology is consistency... Engineered shafts rolling off the line identical by the thousands... I am long in the tooth and I don't want to rewire my brain. I want to be abe to depend on my equipment doing exactly what it has done for years...

SO for those of you with LD shafts tossed in the closet... Dig them out... Carry them to your local repair guy and try a larger ferrule or a different ferrule material. Once you fall on the combination that works for you you will likely be set for the rest of your playing careers.... No adjustments necesary to your game just a few sheckles out of your wallet and you will be right back in high cotton....

Chris

Chris, just want to make sure you know, when the situation on table does not allow you the 0 squirt bridge length , to also allow adjustment when a shorter bridge shot present it self...Also, to be careful, LD shafts have small tip, which also have much higher tendency to squirve (curve the CB opposite to squirt) too much elevation then you would need to adjust for that! how about stun shots with english, in HD shafts no adjustments needed for aim since squirt is your friend , but LD shafts have to adjust so you do not over cut, the exact opposite when you have none stun (rolling CB) Squirt is your enemy with HD shafts,,We pool players at high level always have to think about the shot, if you do not, you risk missing, and one miss could make you loose the game; unfortunately with LD or HD shafts thinking is a must.
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
That's certainly interesting. It sounds like you prefer quite a thin shaft (OB Pro at 11.75mm) but one that produces a bit more squirt than the OB Pro. Are your mods strictly to the ferrule (longer and different material, with no pad needed) and not to the taper at all? Is your preferred ferrule material something that is sure to be around for a long time (or maybe you have stocked up on it)?

I wonder whether anyone has done any tests to see just how consistent a particular brand/model of LD shaft is.

P.S. Predator was experimenting with shafts earlier than 1994, but I'm not aware of any hitting the market until then.

Shaft diameter doesn't really matter to me one way or the other. My custom LD shafts were at 12.4 am just not in possession of one at the moment. Will have one soon and have to work on getting it to play the way I am used to. For the custom shafts we usually use carbon fiber pads for the OB I simply have the tenon cut longer and a longer ferrule installed. I doubt many of the current options for ferrule material goes the way of Micarta because none of them are hazardous...

Consistentcy comes from the engineering of the shaft. I would hazard a guess that most major LD shafts woud be considerable more consistent shaft to shaft than either solid maple or LD Solid maple which is being done by several custom cue makers. So far all 3 OB Pros have been dead on... So mods are repetable....

Predator selling shafts prior to 1994 is a definite. I cannot recall when the full cues first turned up but I want to think they were prior to 1994 just based on recalling what tournaments I was attending. BY 94 I was at MTSU and no longer traveling as much to regional events as I was winding up my degree. I had first seen the predator shafts at the BCA tradeshow in Nashville.. That was how I came to be able to order them prior to the cues releasing. Looking at the BCA Expo site Nashville was 1991.....
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
I enjoyed the read but I find with LD shafts, changing tips are fine but
chopping ferrules on them would probably go against the years of
testing by which there decision was made to use that material in the first
place.
To experiment on maple shafts is the opposite. Changing ferrules is no
problem and runs no risk in offsetting anything that can happen with
spliced shafts.
I'm seeing more guys nowadays willing to except a little more deflection
for more''feel''.
Personally I've always believed that when I hear guys say ''dead hit'' I
think, just change the tip. Tip and joint play a huge part in feel to me.
If you've noticed the LD shafts that have the lowest deflection had less
feel.Thats the sacrifice people have to make if they want a really low
deflective shaft.
My experience has taught me that if a shaft has high deflection it will
have a great feel but to difficult to play those key shots you run
into during a serious game. For me, my best success has been with Predator
even though I've tried out many many others.
For me trying new things are fun and its like a test of will to figure the shafts
out but if your serious about the game then trying new things can really
screw with your mind.
I've seen many guys game start plunging down the toilet cause there always
at battle with there equipment and not thinking about there game.
This game is fun but can drive ya looney:)

The issue is their research many times is to create the lowest deflection shaft they can.. Not always the case as we know the Classic and Classic pro were designed to be low but not the lowest deflection and add feel back to the shaft...

The classic might be a perfect match for me. It's higher deflection than the pro but that is not what I had to work with and the whole idea is that as long as it starts out less than I require I can add it back. I have no desire or need to continue trying shafts to find the perfect fit from the factory. I have them fitted to me.... I can depend on OB quality and consistency so I see no reason to continue the shaft quest....

Chris
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Chris, just want to make sure you know, when the situation on table does not allow you the 0 squirt bridge length , to also allow adjustment when a shorter bridge shot present it self...Also, to be careful, LD shafts have small tip, which also have much higher tendency to squirve (curve the CB opposite to squirt) too much elevation then you would need to adjust for that! how about stun shots with english, in HD shafts no adjustments needed for aim since squirt is your friend , but LD shafts have to adjust so you do not over cut, the exact opposite when you have none stun (rolling CB) Squirt is your enemy with HD shafts,,We pool players at high level always have to think about the shot, if you do not, you risk missing, and one miss could make you loose the game; unfortunately with LD or HD shafts thinking is a must.

/boggle

Of course there are instances with no shot at a zero squirt bridgelength. Some of the lowest deflecting shafts have a zero squirt bridge length rediculously far back assuming you are talking back hand english...

There are other methods than back hand so YMMV.... I think you are close to wrapping your head around things but not quite getting there.

I am not adding much weight to a LD shaft. Definitely not enough to get it back to the realm of real wood. I want less deflection than traditional maple. I actually want a shaft that at 8.5ft with inside english will squirt the ball about an inch and an 1/8th with a 10-12 inch bridge using backhand english... If I get that I can play at a high level and never have to think.. If I don't have that then I have to consciously factor in squirt or alter my mind's eye.. Neither of which will ever get me in the zone... No good players are in their conscious brain during execution.....

Chris
 

TWOFORPOOL

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
LD Shaft Decision

What are some of the "Mods" that you have tried on a LD shaft. What do these "Mods" actually do?
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
What are some of the "Mods" that you have tried on a LD shaft. What do these "Mods" actually do?

The mods are all about adding end mass back to the LD shaft. So far 3 things work nicely. 3/8" Carbon pad under the tip adds enough to my Custom shafts but they are custom so sometimes thicker sometimes thinner. Enlarging ferrules or changing out LD ferrules for more traditional denser ferrule material...

http://www.dzcues.com/ferrules-4.html

Lists the density of ferrule materials. Most LD shaft makers go with Titan or it's equivalent. Swapping to Juma will add some deflection. The amount will vary based on the ferrule size. Bigger ferrues of course menaing a bigger change when swapping materials....

Chris
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Predator selling shafts prior to 1994 is a definite. I cannot recall when the full cues first turned up but I want to think they were prior to 1994 just based on recalling what tournaments I was attending. BY 94 I was at MTSU and no longer traveling as much to regional events as I was winding up my degree. I had first seen the predator shafts at the BCA tradeshow in Nashville.. That was how I came to be able to order them prior to the cues releasing. Looking at the BCA Expo site Nashville was 1991.....

Chris -- my memory for dating the introduction of Predator shafts was that Predator products (through Clawson Cue Company at first) were not at the first Super Billiards Expo in Secaucus NJ in 1993, but did show up at Valley Forge a couple years later.

The Blue Book seems to indicate 1994 as a start date, although the first sentence does say "cues": http://bluebookofpoolcuevalues.com/Pool_Cue_Values/Pool_Cue_Manufacturer.aspx?id=PREDATOR_CUES

Here's an AzB post from a couple years ago giving the start date for shafts as 1994: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3639549&postcount=16

Here's a page from the Predator website, indicating 314 shafts appeared in 1994: http://www.predatorcues.com/technology/innovation/

To confirm, I just called Predator and asked when they started selling LD shafts. They said it was in 1994 and this is their 20th anniversary year. Whether the person I spoke with was a truly knowledgeable historian of the company, I don't know.

Is it possible your memory is fuzzy on this? It doesn't seem possible that they were at the BCA tradeshow in 1991.
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Chris -- my memory for dating the introduction of Predator shafts was that Predator products (through Clawson Cue Company at first) were not at the first Super Billiards Expo in Secaucus NJ in 1993, but did show up at Valley Forge a couple years later.

The Blue Book seems to indicate 1994 as a start date, although the first sentence does say "cues": http://bluebookofpoolcuevalues.com/Pool_Cue_Values/Pool_Cue_Manufacturer.aspx?id=PREDATOR_CUES

Here's an AzB post from a couple years ago giving the start date for shafts as 1994: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3639549&postcount=16

Here's a page from the Predator website, indicating 314 shafts appeared in 1994: http://www.predatorcues.com/technology/innovation/

To confirm, I just called Predator and asked when they started selling LD shafts. They said it was in 1994 and this is their 20th anniversary year. Whether the person I spoke with was a truly knowledgeable historian of the company, I don't know.

Is it possible your memory is fuzzy on this? It doesn't seem possible that they were at the BCA tradeshow in 1991.

It has been over 20 years so I defintely could be fuzzy.. I do know I had shafts prior to the cues coming on the market.. I ordered them directly from Clawson and am not sure how I would have had contact information on them unless it had been the tradeshow... I was working at a pool room here in Knoxville called Brunswick Billiards so you can imagine the confusion my name tag caused.... I'll look back thru some things and see when it might have been.. I can usually tell from what girlfriend I had at the time because pool usually ran them off after a year or 2.......
 
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