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dr_dave
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08-17-2015, 12:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolplaya9 View Post
IMO the key is that you can't just watch pro matches. You have to analyze them and it really comes down to two simple questions you ask yourself right before and after every shot. Before every shot, ask yourself how you would play the shot. Then, if they end up choosing to play it differently than you would have, ask yourself why they chose to play it the way they did instead of your way. And there almost always is a good reason.

It all comes down to reducing risk/s and playing the percentages (which you either aren't doing, or are just wrong in your percentage calculations/assumptions). Their way was reducing the risk of one or more of the following (and there are tons more that can be added to this list):
-the risk of missing the shot (so they choose to "cinch" it and take less than ideal shape for the next ball
-the risk of speed control being too critical (too much chance of over running or under running position
-the risk of getting hooked
-the risk of bumping balls into bad positions that cause new problems
-the risk of trying to do too much with the cue ball and increasing the difficultly when it wasn't necessary (not taking the more natural position route when it would have worked just as well can be one example)
-the risk that it would be too difficult to try to get shape on a particular ball late in the game (so they may try to get on it early so if they fail they still have chances to get on it again later)
-the risk that a miss in this circumstance is almost guaranteed to be a sell out and cause you to lose the game whereas in another circumstance it might not be
-there may be an alternate position route or shot choice that isn't much more difficult but that makes it a two way shot where if you miss the opponent is likely to have no shot or a tough shot
-etc
-etc
-etc

You can't just watch pros and try to remember what they do in certain circumstances. That is just memorization and it doesn't stick very well and will take you forever to pick it up that way. Plus you will get it wrong half the time anyway because you won't recognize some of the subtle nuances involved that made them make that choice when they may have chosen something totally different with another similar table layout that to your untrained eye looks like the exact same circumstance/layout but is actually totally different because of something almost unnoticeable.

The key is knowing and understanding why they did something a certain way which you can't know unless you think hard about it. What risks did it reduce over what your choice would have been? Once you analyze and figure out the whys you almost can't help but to remember what to do in those circumstances and you will start to pick things up much more quickly.

Yes, because of the skill differences some of their choices may not always be correct for someone of your skill level (much more often than not they are still the right choice for you too though), but as soon as you learn to recognize why they do what they do, you will quickly be able to adapt that knowledge to your own skill level and make the highest percentage choices for your own game. The key is just recognizing the risks they were concerned about and the whys of their choices and how that mitigated some of those risks and then knowing and remembering what to do starts to come pretty easy from there.
Excellent post. FYI, I added a partial quote on the strategy resource page in the "general" section.

Good job,
Dave
  
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Dockter
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08-17-2015, 12:52 PM

I still suck at picking the pattern but...

Do you record yourself playing when shooting alone? I knew my patterns weren't the best but when I started recording myself playing I could really see how wrong I was with some shots. It's really caused me to spend some time looking over the table and remembering what I did wrong in past times. I'm still not great ( or even good ) but recording myself has helped a lot.
  
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08-17-2015, 01:15 PM

There is a video I think called Buddy Hall on 9 ball where he plays a bunch of racks and goes through his though process on each shot. Also watch player review videos from AccuStats, you can learn a lot about why and exactly how they shot many of the shots they played.

Stuff like this is what separates good players from just "straight shooters" that can pocket balls but don't know much else.


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08-17-2015, 02:19 PM

I enjoy reading this thread. This is the kind of a thread about how to play better that makes me log on to AZ.

Patterns only make sense to a player if they can play the position shots.

i would watch the David Sapolis (hopefully I didn't misspell his name again)14.1 videos on youtube. He has many excellent pattern videos that focus on end game patterns that would work well for 8 ball.

Capelle's 8 ball book and the "8 ball bible" books are must reads for better pattern play.
  
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08-17-2015, 02:37 PM

Here's something I do (although take it for what it's worth as I only play one pocket)

When I get to a situation when I think I might be making a borderline wrong decision, or there is a better decision on the table to a better player. I quickly pull out my phone, and snap a picture of the layout.

Then either later on, or afterwards, I set up the situation again, and I ask others how they would have played it.
  
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08-17-2015, 02:59 PM

I appreciate the feedback and insight so far fellas. I'm glad that this post is starting to grow and come to life a bit more.

I didn't get a chance to read through everything multiple times but the few things that immediately stuck out were:

-Take a few steps back from the table and look at things. I definitely stand on the edge of the table when I'm planning my outs and after thinking about it I understand why this has hindered my ability to plan racks. I was watching matches on YouTube last night for hours - and would pause after the rack was broken open and I'd plan the outs. Sometimes it would take me a few minutes per rack, and sometimes I was wrong but I was surprised that some of my patterns were actually what they played. I really think that the camera angle and distance away from the table helped out.

-Assessing running into balls. I don't pay enough attention to this when I run into balls; usually it's some quick conclusion like "The balls will separate, 'nuff said" and I realize how wrong this after watching the pros.

-Trying to do too much - This is me in 80%+ of my games.

I'm also really happy that when I focus on finding the patterns in pro matches I'm actually seeing them and can understand shot choices. I watched matches for close to 6 hours straight and at first I was analyzing shot selection after shots were taken and towards the middle-end I was analyzing shot selection before shots were taken; rationalizing and working through why taking one shot over another would be beneficial.

I think I took a good first step here. Keep the information coming fellas!


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Bob Jewett
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08-17-2015, 03:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zphix View Post
... Here's an example set of diagrams I'll put up. This would be my plan to run out either solids or stripes with BIH after the break.
...
The third shot for solids requires you to be within an inch or two on your position. Try setting up just those three balls and see how often you can get through that sequence to those pockets. On that particular pattern you do have the 5 available if you get wrong on the 4 and the 4 does have another pocket.

Also the position you have shown from the 5 to the 7 is not possible -- you are too straight on the 5. It would be a struggle to just get to the result with no cushion and coming off the bottom cushion would take break-shot speed.


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08-17-2015, 03:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zphix View Post
The only reason I'm not looking for them is because I already know them. Basically, I know the ingredients but don't have the directions and a great many people (AAs and up) have told me the only way to learn this part of the game is through experience, not drills. As for my stroke... It gets compliments :P

For everyone else: I am talking about 8-ball in this particular post.
One thing I would stress is to keep it simple. You know your strengths and your weakness so play to your strengths when in a match and work on the weak parts when practicing to make them a strength.

Pattern play does not matter if as part of that pattern you are leaving yourself shots that are a weakness (say rail shots, or long spot shots) for you. Clearly part of pattern play to learn is how to get yourself to the next strength shoot while you avoid putting yourself in a position to shoot one of your weak shots. Some people see the table differently because of this and play it differently it does not mean they did it wrong.

Always look at the pocket line and know if you need the cue above it or below it for your next shoot, to get to your third shoot the way you need to in order to continue the run. Most importantly know when you need to concede the table so you can stop making balls and put yourself in a position to return to it. The worse thing you can do is allow you ego to remove most, if not all, your balls so your opponent has an open table to work with.
  
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01-28-2016, 11:13 PM

Tor Lowry's Zero-x billiards videos are a really good resource as well. Jimmy Reid has a bunch of videos up on his channel also.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cleary View Post
People always try to come up with "what's wrong with pool", "how do we fix pool"... want to know what's wrong with pool? The people who play pool. That's what's wrong with pool. Case closed.
  
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Straightpool_99
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01-28-2016, 11:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zphix View Post
Originally wrote this as another thread so I hope the title changed.

Anyway, one of the weak points in my game is pattern play and shot choices. I'm usually told that I play shots the harder way and that there are easier options available but I don't see them... yet!

I recognize and understand that this is something that is very hard, if not impossible, to really teach somebody. But, I'm a smart guy and learn quickly, and insightful pool lessons/explanations seem to click relatively easily for me.

I shoot with somebody semi-weekly and I think he plays better patterns than me and he'll usually tell me if he sees something that I don't and I have been learning. Still though, how do I learn to play better patterns and shoot the better shots?

This is a sticking point for me. I watch pro matches to see how they run patterns out, and something I thought about doing was printing out table layouts of runouts these pros complete without watching them run them out and then recording myself shooting these patterns and comparing my shot choices vs. theirs to see what they did vs. what I did.

I also recognize that pros may not play perfect patterns either and may shoot shots that I simply cannot and I'll be aware of that. So that's one option I'm thinking about.

Do you guys have anything else!?

-Richard

EDIT: I'm not looking for the guidelines of pattern play either like rolling into the line of the shot, instead of across the line, etc.
Do these three drills for a couple of weeks. They helped my game to no end. They are not about shot choices, but more about the stuff you didn't want us to talk about (staying on the right side of the balls etc). What doing the drills will do for you is to ingrain these simple one- and two rail shots, where they are easier to recognize during the game. You will then be familiar with the easy way to play the shots. You are in a way reprogramming yourself. Once a shot is ingrained like this, the patterns will jump out at you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9bws47rM-A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42_-zDA2vHU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fju7xCCsi_w

Then you do the brainwashing drill. Just break the balls and shoot every shot without the cueball hitting a rail. Or set them up in a pattern like the guy below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoxauonHCNE

Telling you stuff about patterns won't help you much. For me, at least, drills are the best teachers of patterns. I have also extensively studied the patterns of Mike Sigel in straight pool. I would still say that the drills are better, but studying better players does give you extra knowledge.

Last edited by Straightpool_99; 01-28-2016 at 11:27 PM.
  
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victorl
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01-29-2016, 12:04 AM

There's a sticky thread for the AZ Ghost Challenge, with a great group of players posting scores and videos of themselves playing the ghost.

Post some 8-ball videos, ask for some feedback and I'm sure you'll get a lot of top-notch advice from some really good players
  
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01-29-2016, 06:11 AM

sent you a PM, best of luck.


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01-29-2016, 06:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolplaya9 View Post
IMO the key is that you can't just watch pro matches. You have to analyze them and it really comes down to two simple questions you ask yourself right before and after every shot. Before every shot, ask yourself how you would play the shot. Then, if they end up choosing to play it differently than you would have, ask yourself why they chose to play it the way they did instead of your way. And there almost always is a good reason.

It all comes down to reducing risk/s and playing the percentages (which you either aren't doing, or are just wrong in your percentage calculations/assumptions). Their way was reducing the risk of one or more of the following (and there are tons more that can be added to this list):
-the risk of missing the shot (so they choose to "cinch" it and take less than ideal shape for the next ball
-the risk of speed control being too critical (too much chance of over running or under running position
-the risk of getting hooked
-the risk of bumping balls into bad positions that cause new problems
-the risk of trying to do too much with the cue ball and increasing the difficultly when it wasn't necessary (not taking the more natural position route when it would have worked just as well can be one example)
-the risk that it would be too difficult to try to get shape on a particular ball late in the game (so they may try to get on it early so if they fail they still have chances to get on it again later)
-the risk that a miss in this circumstance is almost guaranteed to be a sell out and cause you to lose the game whereas in another circumstance it might not be
-there may be an alternate position route or shot choice that isn't much more difficult but that makes it a two way shot where if you miss the opponent is likely to have no shot or a tough shot
-etc
-etc
-etc

You can't just watch pros and try to remember what they do in certain circumstances. That is just memorization and it doesn't stick very well and will take you forever to pick it up that way. Plus you will get it wrong half the time anyway because you won't recognize some of the subtle nuances involved that made them make that choice when they may have chosen something totally different with another similar table layout that to your untrained eye looks like the exact same circumstance/layout but is actually totally different because of something almost unnoticeable.

The key is knowing and understanding why they did something a certain way which you can't know unless you think hard about it. What risks did it reduce over what your choice would have been? Once you analyze and figure out the whys you almost can't help but to remember what to do in those circumstances and you will start to pick things up much more quickly.

Yes, because of the skill differences some of their choices may not always be correct for someone of your skill level (much more often than not they are still the right choice for you too though), but as soon as you learn to recognize why they do what they do, you will quickly be able to adapt that knowledge to your own skill level and make the highest percentage choices for your own game. The key is just recognizing the risks they were concerned about and the whys of their choices and how that mitigated some of those risks and then knowing and remembering what to do starts to come pretty easy from there.
This is some top notch advice. Seriously OP, look at whats here.


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01-29-2016, 09:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolplaya9 View Post
Then, if they end up choosing to play it differently than you would have, ask yourself why they chose to play it the way they did instead of your way. And there almost always is a good reason.
Don't neglect the possibility the reason is that they screwed up. It may (or may not) be rare, but see if their next few shots are tougher than they ought to be.

Another suggestion: evaluate every ball on the table after every shot which moved balls (other than OB). Which balls are A) pocketable as they sit, B) pocketable once some A balls are pocketed, C) need to be moved, D) break balls. (thanks G. Fels) If nothing else this makes one become acquainted with them all.

Trying to find an ordering of 14 balls amongst the 87 Billion possibilities is a hopeless task. One must reduce those possibilites by any means necessary. Find the final ball; find the key ball; find a group of two balls to take in order; find the starting ball; break clusters early; leave fallback balls when breaking; etc.

Thank you kindly.
  
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01-29-2016, 09:41 AM

Why the hell was this revived lol...

You guys can relax as I no longer have this problem.


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