Adjusting from LD shaft to solid maple shaft.

Thanks for respected comments Eric. As I mentioned solid maple shaft hit, feel, play and deflect will differ depending the variance's in density, spline/runout, ferrule length and media and last choice of tip. Quality Solid Wood is Good.

Have a good safe weekend,

-Kat,

hang-the-9 said:

You make amazing cues, but you did what many people do, you listed LD shafts and solid maple shafts as being separate. Not all LD shafts are laminated. Predator is, OB is. Players HXT is not, neither are the shafts I played with from Mike Webb or from another local maker near me. What makes a shaft LD is the end mass, using thinner ferrule walls, smaller ferule (as you pointed out the material weight is a factor also), hollowed out shaft with some lighter material in the end. Plenty of LD shafts are also "solid maple". The laminated wood changes the hit of the shaft and how it may or may not warp but does not make a shaft LD or not on it's own.

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I think you missed the point, or I wasn't clear. I am not contesting the science of deflection, nor am I asking for somebody to explain it to me. The point of my post was to question the legitimacy of LD shafts as a whole. How many LD shafts really are all that, and how much variation is there within a brand? If you take ten random, brand new LD shafts of the same make & model and test them against one another, how different will they be? I'd tend to believe the differences would raise some eyebrows. Furthermore, how many solid/standard maple shafts would actually better some of the advertised LD shafts? Again, I bet folks would be surprised.

For the record, I am not a cue maker and I don't suggest that I know more than most cue builders.

But I liked your questions and will put my $.02 in.

I do compare LD shafts and non LD shafts. I use particular signature shots and aim and shoot the same way using the different shafts. I also compare LD shaft with other LD shafts. I also "test" cues of professional players and I ask them to shoot spin shots with cues other than their own.

Traditional solid maple shafts can be LD shafts. Like you mentioned, changing the ferrule material can change the LD properties. Changing the diameter of the solid maple shaft can do that as well.

I will keep an open mind about LD shafts being "in your head" but my personal experience is that LD helps me play better because I have to adjust less. I suppose that if I used less English I could play better to a certain extent. I own many traditional, solid maple shafts as well and have used them extensively.

I have also designed LD shafts with the help of another great cue maker who actually does the building of them. I use DymondWood, which is a relatively heavy and dense, laminated wood but turn them into LD shafts.

I also teach pool and one of my students who I have worked with off and on just had a significant boost in his confidence and his win/loss record. It happened because he purchased one of my LD DymondWood cues. And no, I don't have any LD DymondWood cues for sale. I only make about 3 per year because they are a real pain to build. I'm not trying to create a market for them and not trying to do a one-upsmanship thing, so I hope this post doesn't come off like that.

So in summary, yes I believe I can play better with LD shafts, especially with cue disciplines that require more mastery of spin shots.

Personally speaking, I don't believe LD properties are nearly as critical in games of rotation on 9 foot tables, although the European guys seem to do pretty well with LD shafts.

JoeyA

P.S. I believe REVO shafts are the way of the future for cue building (but I don't own one yet). I also believe that some players and cue builders will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming to come to this same conclusion. No disrespect intended. I respect strong, intelligent opinions based upon years of dedicated experience.

qbilder said:

I understand the physics behind deflection quite well. What I do not understand is the quantification, the extent to which LD shafts change things from a normal shaft. Being a cue maker, I am aware of the significant spectrum in quality, spine, and density of solid maple. One maple shaft is not the same as every other. In fact, it's challenging to accurately match two shafts for a cue. Considering that LD shafts are also made of maple, albeit laminated, there will be the same inconsistencies. Indeed that is exactly what I have noticed with them. They range pretty dramatically in weight from one shaft to another, which by the very definition will cause inconsistencies from shaft to shaft concerning the LD properties.

Another thing often mentioned is ferrule length. Ferrule length is only a factor when there's only one way to install a ferrule & only one material to use. Only when you compare apples to apples does ferrule length factor. Case in point, and old fiber will be heavy where a newer thermo-plastic may weigh 25% less. If the thermo is a 1" ferrule with typical 5/16-18 install type, it will be a noticeably heavier ferrule than a 1/2" fiber with 3/8" straight slip fit. That's extreme ends of the spectrum with a zillion possibilities in-between.

So my point is, given that everybody understands what LD means, how does it translate to the table & with all the variables, who can be 100% sure the LD shaft they buy is actually lower deflection than the standard maple that came with the cue? How many people actually compare them in a head on, unbiased test? Furthermore, how much of the "LD makes you play better" is in the player's head? I'm not disputing the science behind LD. I'm only questioning how much the shaft shopper actually knows about the ever present variables, and to what degree it matters. It seems to be common accepted belief that LD labeled & marketed shafts are across the board lower deflection than standard maple, and I challenge that notion. How many people perceive themselves as playing better with LD shafts because they wholeheartedly believe they are supposed to?

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qbilder said:

I think you missed the point, or I wasn't clear. I am not contesting the science of deflection, nor am I asking for somebody to explain it to me. The point of my post was to question the legitimacy of LD shafts as a whole. How many LD shafts really are all that, and how much variation is there within a brand? If you take ten random, brand new LD shafts of the same make & model and test them against one another, how different will they be? I'd tend to believe the differences would raise some eyebrows. Furthermore, how many solid/standard maple shafts would actually better some of the advertised LD shafts? Again, I bet folks would be surprised.

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Outside of new players, I do think that many players compare different LD shafts quite a bit, although maybe not 5 of the same model. My reply was more based on this from you "Considering that LD shafts are also made of maple, albeit laminated", I was pointing out that LD shafts are not all laminated since quite a few people have posted that same thing, it seems the thought is that if it's an LD shaft, it is laminated and that lamination is what causes the LD effect or at least part of it.

I can tell you in the shafts I played with, the Mike Webb LD shafts had a great hit feel and did not cause me to change my aim from the Predator, Players HXT or OB that I have played with. Issue with testing for most people is that you really need a robot to do the testing. Even a pro player can have enough variance in the aim and stroke that you can't do a good study. You can hit 1mm off and use another 10% speed and now your deflection tests are all off.

Eric you made a great point.

Through my years trying cues and playing pool, I have been through the same road as many members here on AzB.

The first cue, making balls with it, stringing balls together, getting better, knowing more cues, changing cues and getting used to new cues, then changing cues again....

At first my focus was on how to pot balls, that was when deflection was the biggest focus. Then the process of changing cues raise another question, how much deflection??? This is actually the fun part that most cannot quantify. Cues are different, shafts are different, even 2 shafts paired with same butt produce different squirt and deflection. I played with LD shafts for 2-3 years and every time I changed the tip the cue reacted differently. My LD shafts changed over time also, they got weaker.

When I focus on deflection, it took me 6 months to change from LD cue to a custom, which was a sugartree.

since then I have changed multiple custom cues, all solid maple shafts, but my perspective changed. for 3 years now I dont care about deflection, I care about "feel", how I feel the cue ball will go if I put an amount of side spin on the cue ball, and if that spin will throw the object ball into the pocket. That being said, my priority has changed from potting the ball to learning how the balls react, and more on cue ball action than object ball, because the object ball will need to go to the pocket. but how much power, how much side spin, etc will decide different reaction of the cue ball.

That is when I build up my game differently, when I change cues I just practice random pottings and see how cue ball reacts with my stroke, tip, power; that helps build up "feel", which helps me get used to new cues much quicker. days instead of months like when I looked at deflection first.

My point is, deflection should not be that much of an issue when you play pool, in some situation, deflection is actually a good weapon to use. every cue, even every shaft has different deflection, and even different ppl may produce and see deflection differently, and if you cant quantify it, feel is a better thing to study.

Lose the glue pie and the ferrule

11 cues in 2 1/2 years tells me you are struggling and in that case a change to a solid maple shaft probably can't hurt but at some point you have to stop blaming the equipment and realize it's you who needs to improve.

You might be confusing your brain by changing constantly.

Don't confuse your brain.

To be clear, I am neither here nor there with an opinion on LD vs standard, and for good reason. The effects of LD are undeniable & absolute, but to what end & what extreme? It's impossible to eliminate deflection, and deflection progressively becomes higher as you move farther from center ball. A player who rarely or never uses side spin will see little or no difference in the way of accuracy between a standard & LD shaft. A guy often using extreme side spin will notice the biggest difference, whether he likes LD or not. From my perspective, the way deflection factors into a player's game is very personal & individual.

A little time maybe?

I believe the better the player is the faster they adjust to new equipment, cues, shafts, tables, etc.

I recently had Pat Diviney convert a 12.75 mm 30" Lake Salvage shaft I had into his version of a LD shaft and I am sending him a 12.5 mm Lake Salvage to do the same conversion on.

I always felt his Lake Salvage shafts deflected less then other maple shafts I tried and his Kiel wood shaft seemed to also. He offers Kiel wood LD shafts now also, but I am holding off on one of those for a few months as the $1,500.00 rifle I recently bought drained most of the recreation fund for awhile. I hate that!

We don't all interpret a cues hit the same, our strokes are different and most of the LD shaft testing I have watched seems to always favor the testers product. So I am left with deciding on my own.

For now, I am content with the Diveney LD shaft that is also pure maple. This shaft seems like the best of both worlds to me, so far. A year from now I may believe differently.

I never ask Pat Diveney about what he does to make his LD shafts, but they do have a short ferrule and a stiff hit.

I also believe there are an abundance of good maple and LD shafts available and any good shooter will shoot good with either one once they are used to the shaft.

Well since you have had 11 cues in 2 1/2 yrs thier is no way you have ever gotten use to any cue long enough to establish a consistency that would take a long time to match with a regular maple shaft


9

poolguy4u said:

News flash-----not all laminated shafts are low deflection.



Just thought I would to spread a little knowledge....

















.

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A refreshing change of direction from earlier posts in this thread. "LD is just hype". Lol. Round earth is hype too.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

336Robin said:

BHE is a great way to play, its even better with an LD.

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I have found the pivot to be too far back with LD shafts to use BHE. If I pivot at my comfortable bridge, I find the cue ball hitting to the same side as I'm hitting, like it is deflecting backwards.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

TheDirtyBird said:

Anyone else go from LD to solid maple? How long did it take to adjust your game and aiming? I know it will be different for everyone, just wanting to get some opinions and feedback.

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I sometimes go back and forth.

I strongly prefer solid maple but sometimes bring out my LD's
just to play and feel the difference.

The first thing I always notice when I go back to the solid maple
is how much more "powerful" they are vs. the LD shafts - at
least for me and my stroke.

I mean overdrawing, shooting too hard for shape, and the rest
of it is very common for the first few shots....lol but adjusting
just takes a few shots since I've been going back and forth for so long.

After reading all these posts on AZ about LD and Maple Shafts. I now consider myself a expert on the subject. I have a Master Degree in Cue Shaft engineering. I also have attended assorted night classes in wood dynamics from the Knoxville Tennessee School of Faith Healing.

I'm not a professional pool player so take what I say for what it is my belief. I starting shooting pool when I was 11 I'm 35 now. I shot half of it with a schon which I still have It was a gift for my 13 birthday I shot fine with it for many years it does deflect like crazy. I went in the military and did not want to take my schon with me so I bought a predator sneaky pete which I shot with on and off for the next 5 years. When I came back home I was excited to start shooting with my schon again but I just couldn't make a ball with english I was in disbelief so I grabbed the predator sure enough I made the shot over and over. So I started deflection testing and sure enough my schon had alot of deflection. I have been shooting predator ever since and don't plan to change as the adjustment now would just take to much time and for what. I belief you should use the least amount of english you can and you should play the angle for each shot but lets just face it my speed control is just not up to svb standards and I often jump from a barbox to a diamond 7ft to 9ft tables. So the bottom line is I'm going to use english to get back in line at some point or just use it to change the rebound angle to miss a ball thats in the way. Ld shafts just make it easier because you don't have move as far off of the shot line. I understand some people complain about the hit being dead I have found if you use a pretty hard tip like I like its not that bad. I hope this was some help there really is a pretty big difference in my experience but the most important things is to use the least amount of english you can and shoot with the same shaft all the time.

qbilder said:

How many people perceive themselves as playing better with LD shafts because they wholeheartedly believe they are supposed to?

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My experience suggests that there is a fairly large placebo effect among pool players. For years, the only shafts I played had 1-1.1” ivory ferrules. Anytime my LD friends would hit a few balls with them, they would comment “too much deflection”. A few years back, I bought a couple short ferrule John Showman shafts. Several folks commented their surprise that I had “switched to LD”. Those players initially liked the feel of the short ferrule shafts, …, until I told them the ferrules were ivory. Each time, they put the cue down and did not know what to think. The reason for blinding them to the ferrule material was to get unbiased opinions whether or not the shorter ferrules still deflected too much for their tastes, because personally, I cannot tell the difference. Once they learned the composition of the ferrules, which is supposed to be “bad”, they couldn’t tell me if they liked the performance of the shafts.

FYI, I can feel the difference between my traditional shafts and the 314-2 that I own. IMO, players should rely on their own experience and tastes rather than accepting the lore they learn from other pool players.

hang-the-9 said:

You make amazing cues, but you did what many people do, you listed LD shafts and solid maple shafts as being separate. Not all LD shafts are laminated. Predator is, OB is. Players HXT is not, neither are the shafts I played with from Mike Webb or from another local maker near me. What makes a shaft LD is the end mass, using thinner ferrule walls, smaller ferule (as you pointed out the material weight is a factor also), hollowed out shaft with some lighter material in the end. Plenty of LD shafts are also "solid maple". The laminated wood changes the hit of the shaft and how it may or may not warp but does not make a shaft LD or not on it's own.

I have watched pro players shoot with different cues, Mike Dechaine played with a Predator, when he did he tried my son's Players HXT shaft and was missing by an inch or two on every shot with it when he used spin. Whenever I change to a standard shaft, I need to make sure I aim 1/4 to 1/2 a ball off when using a tip or two of side spin or I hit a diamond off. I will bet if you put an LD shaft in the hands of someone like Bustamante, he will miss by an inch or more for a bit till he learned where to aim with it.

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Samsara True Shaft is not laminated either.

qbilder said:

I think you missed the point, or I wasn't clear. I am not contesting the science of deflection, nor am I asking for somebody to explain it to me. The point of my post was to question the legitimacy of LD shafts as a whole. How many LD shafts really are all that, and how much variation is there within a brand? If you take ten random, brand new LD shafts of the same make & model and test them against one another, how different will they be? I'd tend to believe the differences would raise some eyebrows. Furthermore, how many solid/standard maple shafts would actually better some of the advertised LD shafts? Again, I bet folks would be surprised.

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Well, since all my cues have the same OB 11.75 LD shaft, and with the exact same tip installed, and I even use the same chalk They work for me, and I don't notice any difference between any of them.

The weights of the cues are all about 19 oz, give or take .10 ounce. Now, when I didn't have my cue with me to sub and played with my friends OB 12.75 shaft, holly cow, it felt completely different, and shot differently as well.

TheDirtyBird said:

I've been playing pool for about 2 1/2 years now. I'm not the greatest player, but I'm trying to get better. I only play APA, and I'm a 5 in 8-ball and a 6 in 9-ball. I've gone through several cues in the past couple years (11 to be exact. lol) trying to find the cue that I feel is for me. My first was a Poison Black Widow that I wanted so my wife got it for Christmas. From there I've owned a Viking, 3 Lucasis, 3 Predators, a Jacoby, a Schon, and now I have a Pechauer. Almost all of them I had a low deflection shaft with except for the Jacoby came with a solid maple shaft, though I was quick to buy a predator shaft for it and never took the time to play with the maple shaft. I did however like the feel of the solid shaft when I did hit with it a few times. It felt a lot better and more solid with better feedback than all the low deflection shafts. I'm in the process of purchasing a Diveney Sneaky Pete and plan on making it my primary shooter. A friend of mine has a Diveney cue and I love it. It hits and feels amazing. My big concern is teaching myself to adjust to the added deflection that is going to come with a solid shaft. Anyone else go from LD to solid maple? How long did it take to adjust your game and aiming? I know it will be different for everyone, just wanting to get some opinions and feedback.

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I suppose that this question should come up more often, considering how established lower squirt cue are a normal thing.

I'm not as unique as I once thought. I have consciously adjusted for squirt for about 30 years, so with the advent of low squirt cues in 1996ish, I had already got a pretty good conscious handle on squirt compensation. So, when I actually gave a low squirt cue a go (for a year and a half), I never reached the same playing level as I had with a regular shaft.

When I switched back to solid maple, how long did it take to adjust back? About a day. But, again, I had a conscious method to use for adjustment. I'm sure you don't have one.

Today, I believe I own something like 20 low squirt shafts. I've found that if I take a break for a while, I'll start back up using a low squirt cue until I get my stroke back, and then I use a normal squirt shaft to get my best game back.

YMMV.

Freddie