Can anyone enlighten me about Diamond's retail business model and pricing?

KRJ

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
And there lies the problem, there isn't enough experienced table mechanics in this country to scratch a nats ass let alone service all the Diamond tables, or any other tables in the market place correctly, and that is why there's so many screwed up pool tables out here. I will say Diamond is the first manufacturer to see the aftermarket problem, but still has no clue how to fix it. No other manufacturers care, they'd be glad to sell you a new pool table when the one you bought gets turned into a pile of shit. All you have to do is look at all the Gold Crowns coming out of pool rooms that have closed down, they're torn up, beat to death, miss matched in parts and the whole 9 yards. But to all those that have always wanted a GC but could never afford one....there finally priced right, cheap! Until you buy one, then realize....wtf, this thing don't play like i remember them playing,....who do i call to fix it????? Guess what, for the most part, you'll end up calling the same ppl that basically destroyed them in the pool rooms in the first place....and this cycle all takes place because the factories that build the tables don't want them fixed up, they'd rather you buy new tables, then they can stay in business....they'd go broke if all the tables on the market were in great condition, because no one would need to buy a new table....LOL
Click to expand...

OK, so my question was it does not matter if you buy from a dealer or direct, as Diamond handles the delivery and install. That was my point, if you buy from a dealer, it makes no difference as they don't have anything to do with the delivery or install.

Thus, it matters not from whom you buy the table from, only who installs it. But, I'm guessing, the customer has no say in who installs the table, correct?
 
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
ChicagoRJ said:
OK, so my question was it does not matter if you buy from a dealer or direct, as Diamond handles the delivery and install. That was my point, if you buy from a dealer, it makes no difference as they don't have anything to do with the delivery or install.

Thus, it matters not from whom you buy the table from, only who installs it. But, I'm guessing, the customer has no say in who installs the table, correct?
Click to expand...

RJ:

If you buy from Diamond direct or Manning Cues( <--Never touches the table you buy) , you will get the Diamond installers. If you buy from an independent Diamond Dealer you get who they have on their staff. You could also buy it from them, have it delivered and have your own installer perform the installation.

I sell Diamond tables and it is one stop shopping from me. I make the sale, I deliver it personally and I will be the one to install it. I also want to be the one who maintains it. I travel year round and only perform maintenance on my clients tables. I always tell them this: "It is not a matter of if, it is when I will be back through their area" . I hope this answers your question! :happydance::happydance::happydance:

17264454_10212453963007071_1098518715464237073_n.jpg
 
Bishop

Bishop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
And there lies the problem, there isn't enough experienced table mechanics in this country to scratch a nats ass let alone service all the Diamond tables, or any other tables in the market place correctly, and that is why there's so many screwed up pool tables out here. I will say Diamond is the first manufacturer to see the aftermarket problem, but still has no clue how to fix it.

No other manufacturers care, they'd be glad to sell you a new pool table when the one you bought gets turned into a pile of shit. All you have to do is look at all the Gold Crowns coming out of pool rooms that have closed down, they're torn up, beat to death, miss matched in parts and the whole 9 yards. But to all those that have always wanted a GC but could never afford one....there finally priced right, cheap! Until you buy one, then realize....wtf, this thing don't play like i remember them playing,....who do i call to fix it????? Guess what, for the most part, you'll end up calling the same ppl that basically destroyed them in the pool rooms in the first place....and this cycle all takes place because the factories that build the tables don't want them fixed up, they'd rather you buy new tables, then they can stay in business....they'd go broke if all the tables on the market were in great condition, because no one would need to buy a new table....LOL
Click to expand...
I'm going to reluctantly take a stab at this and hope you read what I post before responding.

1. I would venture to say there's no real pressing demand to fix "all these screwed up tables"...Diamond's or any other brand. Simply because most people don't know and don't notice that their table has issues. I know these issues drive you up a wall but most people can't tell the difference so its not resulting in quality control issue worth addressing.

I worked at 3 major storefronts in San Antonio and Austin and the call back rate was well below 4%. It was also widely discussed that the national average on call backs by most brands fell at around 5%.

That rate of call backs is about as solid as it gets and there's no reason to create any extra training or installation education when generally speaking you have a long list of happy customers.

Basically there's no reason to raise the standard when there's no pressing financial or quality control reason to do so.

2. These tables in pool rooms are largely destroyed because the bar or hall owners try and fix stuff themselves. They're trying to save a buck and end up mutilating these tables. I'm sure some mechanics are to blame but the bigger culprits are the owners playing weekend billiard mechanic to avoid the service call.
 
S

smashmouth

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
great product/company, ancient business practices

history in commerce on many occasions has proven the demise of the former via the latter

their biggest online presence is RKC, lol, not exactly the person I would want neither championing nor speaking on behalf of the business
 
mchnhed

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
smashmouth said:
great product/company, ancient business practices

history in commerce on many occasions has proven the demise of the former via the latter.
Click to expand...

Think,

Brunswick Bowling
AMF Bowling

Both are now owned by an Italian company.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
smashmouth said:
great product/company, ancient business practices

history in commerce on many occasions has proven the demise of the former via the latter

their biggest online presence is RKC, lol, not exactly the person I would want neither championing nor speaking on behalf of the business
Click to expand...

Good news, i just heard the Diamond mascot position hasn't been filled yet, if you hurry and leave now to apply for the job....you might get it.
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
ChicagoRJ said:
OK, so my question was it does not matter if you buy from a dealer or direct, as Diamond handles the delivery and install. That was my point, if you buy from a dealer, it makes no difference as they don't have anything to do with the delivery or install.

Thus, it matters not from whom you buy the table from, only who installs it. But, I'm guessing, the customer has no say in who installs the table, correct?
Click to expand...

You just pray that your table is not one of first 100 Simonis installs by the mech. :D
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Bishop said:
I'm going to reluctantly take a stab at this and hope you read what I post before responding.

1. I would venture to say there's no real pressing demand to fix "all these screwed up tables"...Diamond's or any other brand. Simply because most people don't know and don't notice that their table has issues. I know these issues drive you up a wall but most people can't tell the difference so its not resulting in quality control issue worth addressing.

I worked at 3 major storefronts in San Antonio and Austin and the call back rate was well below 4%. It was also widely discussed that the national average on call backs by most brands fell at around 5%.

That rate of call backs is about as solid as it gets and there's no reason to create any extra training or installation education when generally speaking you have a long list of happy customers.

Basically there's no reason to raise the standard when there's no pressing financial or quality control reason to do so.

2. These tables in pool rooms are largely destroyed because the bar or hall owners try and fix stuff themselves. They're trying to save a buck and end up mutilating these tables. I'm sure some mechanics are to blame but the bigger culprits are the owners playing weekend billiard mechanic to avoid the service call.
Click to expand...

Well, let me try and explain it this way. Store front being a place selling new pool tables with less that a 4% call back ratio.....hmmmm, well i would think thats to be expected. Here's where the problem starts coming into play....in those store front retail business, for extra income, they start offering service work....on anyones pool table that calls them to get a pool table worked on. I've personally called several store front business just like you worked for, like i was a customer, and started asking questions like, changing the cushions on my pool table. And would you believe, even without kowing what kind of pool table i had, they recommended i have the accufast cushions installed because they're...."the best in the business" and cloth....i asked if they install Simonis....and to my surprise, that wasn't the cloth they install, instead they recommended championship cloth.....because i could get it in almost any color i wanted, BUT, if i still wanted simonis, they would have to special order it in and it would be $$$$ more, and they wouldn't warranty it because it wasn't their normal cloth. AND even when i tolx them i have a Gold Crown, nothing changed, still the accufast cushions and championship cloth. This i know for sure, if you want your rails extended and the pockets tightened, and the correct cushions put on a pool table....you DON'T call a store front business selling new pool tables to do the job.

As for room owners screwing up their own pool tables by doing the work themselves, I'd be willing to bet you if you called 100 pool rooms around the country, you wouldn't find 5% that do their own work, that leaves 95% of the work being done for the most part...by EX store front new pool table installers, who never did get the right training in the first place, because MOST of them store front retailers had no training or background in working on pool tables correctly either as most are self taught, just like almost everyone in this industry is.
 
SpiderWeb

SpiderWeb

iisgone@yahoo.com
Silver Member
smashmouth said:
great product/company, ancient business practices

history in commerce on many occasions has proven the demise of the former via the latter

their biggest online presence is RKC, lol, not exactly the person I would want neither championing nor speaking on behalf of the business
Click to expand...



Thats it, I am calling the union and the AZ Legal Team Tooooooooooo!!!
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Bishop said:
I'm going to reluctantly take a stab at this and hope you read what I post before responding.

1. I would venture to say there's no real pressing demand to fix "all these screwed up tables"...Diamond's or any other brand. Simply because most people don't know and don't notice that their table has issues. I know these issues drive you up a wall but most people can't tell the difference so its not resulting in quality control issue worth addressing.

I worked at 3 major storefronts in San Antonio and Austin and the call back rate was well below 4%. It was also widely discussed that the national average on call backs by most brands fell at around 5%.

That rate of call backs is about as solid as it gets and there's no reason to create any extra training or installation education when generally speaking you have a long list of happy customers.

Basically there's no reason to raise the standard when there's no pressing financial or quality control reason to do so.

2. These tables in pool rooms are largely destroyed because the bar or hall owners try and fix stuff themselves. They're trying to save a buck and end up mutilating these tables. I'm sure some mechanics are to blame but the bigger culprits are the owners playing weekend billiard mechanic to avoid the service call.
Click to expand...

And furthermore, the same customers buying all those pool tables in your store front retail business you worked for, that had less that a 4% dissatisfaction, were also the big supporters of buying the Willy Marconi 7 piece adjustable weight cues with a screw on tip, and every other Chinese made cheap cue to go along with their purchase. Hell, they're even the customers buying the sears and costco pool tables....do you really think they would even know what to complain about....if they HAD a complaint?
 
Bobkitty

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
ElLeon said:
My table manufacturer went out of business many years ago, but was still able to get a local, trained mechanic out to do a custom re-cushion and cloth.

Just some guy a few miles down the road.

Guess it helps when you only live a few miles from RealKingCobra's house?
Click to expand...

THAT is no fair! I've been after Glen for months!
 
GideonF

GideonF

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
And furthermore, the same customers buying all those pool tables in your store front retail business you worked for, that had less that a 4% dissatisfaction, were also the big supporters of buying the Willy Marconi 7 piece adjustable weight cues with a screw on tip, and every other Chinese made cheap cue to go along with their purchase. Hell, they're even the customers buying the sears and costco pool tables....do you really think they would even know what to complain about....if they HAD a complaint?
Click to expand...

I actually think that was his point, at least in part - that they have low call backs at least in part because the customers don't know any better.

Although it is annoying even to me as a person who cares about pool (and I can't imagine how annoying it is to you and other top mechanics who actually do a great job and take pride in their work), I get how a storefront selling furniture tables to non-players would not feel the need to spend time and money training people to do it right (let alone perfect).

However, the interesting thing about Diamond is that I would guess that a pretty high percentage of their tables are sold to people who would appreciate the difference between a great install and bad one. Sure, most won't know why it is wrong, but they will notice that the table doesn't play right. Diamond's interesting niche is to appeal to people willing to pay more for the best new table out there.

So it really is a shame that they can't set up a boot camp to churn out quality mechanics. Hire a master mechanic to train people to be "Diamond Certified".
 
K2Kraze

K2Kraze

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Speaking of out of state, Glen, who's the go-to man/place in the Phoenix metro area if my son wants a Pro-Am for the house? Or best to go Diamond direct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
K

Kevin3824

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You guys got me started again. I am not writing this to upset RKC. He knows more than I ever will about building tables. I also know he has a lot to do with the current diamond product development. That being said we don't always agree on everything either.

Heath Manning of Manning Cues is the only authorized web dealer for Diamond. That is as of this years Expo anyhow. He gave me far better customer service than Diamond themselves. Heath is the way to go with it.

As far as them not having pricing on the internet goes personally I think that is bad business IMHO as well as bad advice. Simply listing MSRP on the web would allow them to actually have sales and specials. As far as needing salespeople goes as opposed to order takers I was under the impression their sales department was comprised mostly of the owners of the company. Unlike popular perception they are actually a pretty small company in the worldwide market.

As far as delivery charges go I understand that delivery and setup costs can be substantial Diamond seems to Delay shipment in order to coincide with large events in your area. I guess that is understandable when they only have 3-4 delivery crews for the entire country. The delivery trucks are very plain with only the legally required commercial markings on the doors. There are no Diamond logos at all located on their trucks. This may be out of fear of being sued if there are any accidents. Part of the problem is that people may still think the only professional table is a Brunswick because when tournaments stopped being aired regularly on tv that was the what they remember. These trucks drive all around the country with tens of thousands of other drivers without any Advertisement on the sidewalls of the trucks. I have read on here there are some installers that use their own vehicles to deliver and setup customer tables. I would not suggest ordering a table a 3 months prior to a large event in your area and expect delivery prior to the event. It seems that once the table is paid for you are at their mercy on when it will be delivered and setup.

They know they have a great product. They used to and may still state on their website their tables are made with the finest materials available in the world. That is also a falsehood. Do your own research and you will see. The materials they use on the 9 ft table are not the same as those they use on other sizes. Artemis cushions have 35 year warranty and are 100 % gum rubber Diamond Black are extruded rubber and have a 7 yr warranty. That's just one example.
 
S

Sweatin'

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Kevin3824 said:
You guys got me started again. I am not writing this to upset RKC. He knows more than I ever will about building tables. I also know he has a lot to do with the current diamond product development. That being said we don't always agree on everything either.

Heath Manning of Manning Cues is the only authorized web dealer for Diamond. That is as of this years Expo anyhow. He gave me far better customer service than Diamond themselves. Heath is the way to go with it.

As far as them not having pricing on the internet goes personally I think that is bad business IMHO as well as bad advice. Simply listing MSRP on the web would allow them to actually have sales and specials. As far as needing salespeople goes as opposed to order takers I was under the impression their sales department was comprised mostly of the owners of the company. Unlike popular perception they are actually a pretty small company in the worldwide market.

As far as delivery charges go I understand that delivery and setup costs can be substantial Diamond seems to Delay shipment in order to coincide with large events in your area. I guess that is understandable when they only have 3-4 delivery crews for the entire country. The delivery trucks are very plain with only the legally required commercial markings on the doors. There are no Diamond logos at all located on their trucks. This may be out of fear of being sued if there are any accidents. Part of the problem is that people may still think the only professional table is a Brunswick because when tournaments stopped being aired regularly on tv that was the what they remember. These trucks drive all around the country with tens of thousands of other drivers without any Advertisement on the sidewalls of the trucks. I have read on here there are some installers that use their own vehicles to deliver and setup customer tables. I would not suggest ordering a table a 3 months prior to a large event in your area and expect delivery prior to the event. It seems that once the table is paid for you are at their mercy on when it will be delivered and setup.

They know they have a great product. They used to and may still state on their website their tables are made with the finest materials available in the world. That is also a falsehood. Do your own research and you will see. The materials they use on the 9 ft table are not the same as those they use on other sizes. Artemis cushions have 35 year warranty and are 100 % gum rubber Diamond Black are extruded rubber and have a 7 yr warranty. That's just one example.
Click to expand...

I'm having a little trouble understanding your post. Are you saying that the materials used in Diamond's 9 foot tables are better or worse than the other sizes?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top