Can Diamond Rails-Cushions be Installed Wrong?

Get_A_Grip

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
I have an opportunity this coming fall to play with 4 of the top players in the league, so I decided to go to that bar and practice on their table. It's a 7-foot Diamond "blue label". (They actually have two 7-foot Diamonds).

The table I was playing on has by far the bounciest cushions that I've ever seen. The cloth installed is Simonis 860. I was gambling cheap with one of the top players in the league and I was having a super hard time running out because the cushions were so bouncy that it made getting exact position with the CB almost impossible.

Although I've played on that table quite a few times in the past, I came to the conclusion yesterday that something just wasn't right. When we finished playing after about 4 hours (I won only $10 since we are very evenly matched), I decided to shoot some 3-rail shots from a corner pocket to try to make the CB in the other corner pocket.

On virtually every table I've ever played on, if you aim at about 2 to 2 1/2 diamond mark on the first rail with running english, it will allow you to make the CB in the corner pocket going 3 rails. On this table, I had to aim at the FIRST DIAMOND, which caused the CB to hit the 3rd rail literally just before the side pocket -- and the CB still came up SHORT of the corner pocket.

Could these rails be installed wrong and in a way to make them excessively bouncy? Diamond tables are great tables no doubt, but these cushions just can't be right. I felt a little silly complaining about the Diamond table playing conditions until I did that 3-rail test. Your input is welcome.
 
Black-Balled

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Contact your dr for an erection that lasts longer than 4hrs.

Not sure why you would seek that oit, but mama always said to 'find yourself a dr., honey'.
 
Get_A_Grip

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
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S

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The link doesn't work, and he's wrong anyway. All tables bank and kick differently...even table to table with the same size and brand. The trick is learning how to adjust your speed and spin to the table quickly. Were the good players you were playing against having the same issues as you, or were they able to adjust? You cannot just go by what you're used to aiming at. Some tables can be put together improperly, but they are generally the exception rather than the rule. I have seen a 9' Diamond where you had to hit near the corner pocket to get the 3 rail to the opposite corner. That table was set up incorrectly.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com



Get_A_Grip said:
For some reason I can't open your link. Is the fix of the rails something that anyone can do? If it would cost any significant money, I'm sure that the bar won't be fixing them. Too bad.
Click to expand...
 
tucson9ball

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Get_A_Grip said:
I have an opportunity this coming fall to play with 4 of the top players in the league, so I decided to go to that bar and practice on their table. It's a 7-foot Diamond "blue label". (They actually have two 7-foot Diamonds).

The table I was playing on has by far the bounciest cushions that I've ever seen. The cloth installed is Simonis 860. I was gambling cheap with one of the top players in the league and I was having a super hard time running out because the cushions were so bouncy that it made getting exact position with the CB almost impossible.

Although I've played on that table quite a few times in the past, I came to the conclusion yesterday that something just wasn't right. When we finished playing after about 4 hours (I won only $10 since we are very evenly matched), I decided to shoot some 3-rail shots from a corner pocket to try to make the CB in the other corner pocket.

On virtually every table I've ever played on, if you aim at about 2 to 2 1/2 diamond mark on the first rail with running english, it will allow you to make the CB in the corner pocket going 3 rails. On this table, I had to aim at the FIRST DIAMOND, which caused the CB to hit the 3rd rail literally just before the side pocket -- and the CB still came up SHORT of the corner pocket.

Could these rails be installed wrong and in a way to make them excessively bouncy? Diamond tables are great tables no doubt, but these cushions just can't be right. I felt a little silly complaining about the Diamond table playing conditions until I did that 3-rail test. Your input is welcome.
Click to expand...


Some of the early "red" labeled tables had this issue, almost like playing on a pinball machine. Most were fixed so they would play normal.
If this was a newer "blue" label, I would say something was wrong.
Maybe Glen "RealKingCobra" could chime in on this. He would know what the problem is for sure.....
 
mchnhed

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
Get_A_Grip said:
For some reason I can't open your link. Is the fix of the rails something that anyone can do? If it would cost any significant money, I'm sure that the bar won't be fixing them. Too bad.
Click to expand...

Link fixed. Added one more.
***The opinions expressed are not my own, I am merely pointing to discussions.***

Please note that Scott Lee is very correct about each individual table having the potential to play different.

Individual lanes in a Bowling House will play different from each other.
That's why you switch tables/lanes each week during a pool/bowling league.
Everybody plays on every table/lane used during the season.
 
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Get_A_Grip

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
Scott Lee said:
The link doesn't work, and he's wrong anyway. All tables bank and kick differently...even table to table with the same size and brand. The trick is learning how to adjust your speed and spin to the table quickly. Were the good players you were playing against having the same issues as you, or were they able to adjust? You cannot just go by what you're used to aiming at. Some tables can be put together improperly, but they are generally the exception rather than the rule. I have seen a 9' Diamond where you had to hit near the corner pocket to get the 3 rail to the opposite corner. That table was set up incorrectly.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
The other player definitely had the same feeling about how springy the rails were and both of us were struggling to control the CB off the rails. But I think that he just chalked it up to it just being a "Diamond".

The 3-rail test I did proved at least to me, that if I literally can't hit anywhere on the first rail and make the ball in the corner without the CB scratching in the side, then something is wrong.

EDIT: I should point out that the other player's solution was to hit the second diamond on the rail with no english to get it closer to making it in the corner, but like I said, I have never seen another table rebound like that so that you can't use running english and where there was literally no place on the first rail that you can hit the 3-railer with running english to make the ball.
 
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Get_A_Grip

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
I will also make a comment that I was considering buying a 9-foot Diamond Pro-Am next year. But I will tell you, that if I can't be certain that the rails will play at least somewhat in the ballpark of the 90% of other tables in the universe, as far as banking and this type of 3-rail shot, then that would definitely prevent me from ever buying a Diamond table.

I mean, small differences (say up to a 1/2 diamond) would be fine I guess. But not so different where you can't even shoot some shots that you can on all other tables (Olhausen, Brunswick, Valley, Shelti, etc.).

Knowing that Diamond "fixed" the issue with the rails in the past tells me that the tables in this bar are very likely the "unfixed" versions.
 
mchnhed

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
All current models of Diamonds are built really correct. Thank the RKC.
Just choose between League Pockets or Pro-Cut Pockets.
If you are playing for fun, get League.
If you are a Serious Player asking for pain, get the Pro Cut.

Get_A_Grip said:
I will also make a comment that I was considering buying a 9-foot Diamond Pro-Am next year. But I will tell you, that if I can't be certain that the rails will play at least somewhat in the ballpark of the 90% of other tables in the universe, as far as banking and this type of 3-rail shot, then that would definitely prevent me from ever buying a Diamond table.

I mean, small differences (say up to a 1/2 diamond) would be fine I guess. But not so different where you can't even shoot some shots that you can on all other tables (Olhausen, Brunswick, Valley, Shelti, etc.).

Knowing that Diamond "fixed" the issue with the rails in the past tells me that the tables in this bar are very likely the "unfixed" versions.
Click to expand...
 
Get_A_Grip

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
mchnhed said:
All current models of Diamonds are built really correct. Thank the RKC.
Just choose between League Pockets or Pro-Cut Pockets.
If you are playing for fun, get League.
If you are a Serious Player asking for pain, get the Pro Cut.
Click to expand...
I was definitely going to get Pro-Cut pockets.

I was hoping some people that play on 7-foot Diamonds could chime in and indicate how they need to hit 3-rail shots from in front of the corner pocket in order to make it in the other corner pocket down by where they are shooting the shot from. That is a quick way to know if it's just the tables at this bar with the "problem" or if "all" Diamonds bank that tight and bouncy.

Plus, my main goal is to be able to report back to the bar and tell them if the rails need adjusting.

EDIT: This bar has the first Diamond tables in my area. I have played on a 7-foot Diamond table in the past, but it was a long time ago and I honestly can't remember any problems with the cushions.
 
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Bobkitty

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Get_A_Grip said:
I was definitely going to get Pro-Cut pockets.

I was hoping some people that play on 7-foot Diamonds could chime in and indicate how they need to hit 3-rail shots from in front of the corner pocket in order to make it in the other corner pocket down by where they are shooting the shot from. That is a quick way to know if it's just the tables at this bar with the "problem" or if "all" Diamonds bank that tight and bouncy.

Plus, my main goal is to be able to report back to the bar and tell them if the rails need adjusting.

EDIT: This bar has the first Diamond tables in my area. I have played on a 7-foot Diamond table in the past, but it was a long time ago and I honestly can't remember any problems with the cushions.
Click to expand...

The 7' Diamond Blue Label tables that I play on at Kolby's in Keiser, Oregon bank the 3 rail by aiming at the 2nd diamond. 2-3=5. That is exactly how my Anniversary banks which I consider "short". When RKC comes, I want him to make my table play as "long" and as fast as possible with Simonis cloth. I'd like it to play 3-2= 5 like the typical billiard table. We'll see if he can do that.
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
mchnhed said:
All current models of Diamonds are built really correct. Thank the RKC.
Just choose between League Pockets or Pro-Cut Pockets.
If you are playing for fun, get League.
If you are a Serious Player asking for pain, get the Pro Cut.
Click to expand...

They still have the Artemis cushions which tend to be "grabby" when the cloth wears out.
And the table is still at the mercy of the factory workers.

The table mech that installs the table has probably less contribution to the banking characteristics of the table than the factory worker who set those rubbers. Unless the mech is really a hack.
Never mind the pocket openings. Some have used protractor to measure the corner angles and they've been around 142*-142*.
 
Get_A_Grip

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
denwhit said:
The 7' Diamond Blue Label tables that I play on at Kolby's in Keiser, Oregon bank the 3 rail by aiming at the 2nd diamond. 2-3=5. That is exactly how my Anniversary banks which I consider "short". When RKC comes, I want him to make my table play as "long" and as fast as possible with Simonis cloth. I'd like it to play 3-2= 5 like the typical billiard table. We'll see if he can do that.
Click to expand...
Are you using running english? Meaning, if you're shooting from the right corner you would use a little high right english? Shooting at the 2nd diamond I would say is still "normal". But shooting at the 1st diamond on the first rail, and almost scratching in the side and then still coming up short from making it in the corner to me is definitely "not normal".
 
Bobkitty

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Get_A_Grip said:
Are you using running english? Meaning, if you're shooting from the right corner you would use a little high right english? Shooting at the 2nd diamond I would say is still "normal". But shooting at the 1st diamond on the first rail, and almost scratching in the side and then still coming up short from making it in the corner to me is definitely "not normal".
Click to expand...

Yes, just a tip of running english. I agree, aiming at the 1st diamond is extremely "short" and that would distort all the typical angles.
 
GideonF

GideonF

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Get_A_Grip said:
Are you using running english? Meaning, if you're shooting from the right corner you would use a little high right english? Shooting at the 2nd diamond I would say is still "normal". But shooting at the 1st diamond on the first rail, and almost scratching in the side and then still coming up short from making it in the corner to me is definitely "not normal".
Click to expand...

Just to make sure I understand your use of numbering, the "first diamond" would be the one closest to the short rail at the other end of the table (and farthest from the side pocket)?
 
K

Kevin3824

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JoeyInCali said:
They still have the Artemis cushions which tend to be "grabby" when the cloth wears out.
And the table is still at the mercy of the factory workers.

The table mech that installs the table has probably less contribution to the banking characteristics of the table than the factory worker who set those rubbers. Unless the mech is really a hack.
Never mind the pocket openings. Some have used protractor to measure the corner angles and they've been around 142*-142*.
Click to expand...

The above quote is actually false information. The OP stated it was a Bar table. I may be wrong but to me that indicated it was a 7 ft table. I own a 7 ft Diamond Pro-Am and was actually very upset when I was informed that they only put the Artemis cushions on the 9 Ft tables. The 7 and 8ft Pro-Am has Diamond Black cushions on it Not Artemis.

If the diamond table the OP played on was very responsive odds are it was in fact setup properly. From many detailed discussions I have had with RKC I can tell you the amount of torque the rails are bolted down with is very important. I will do the three cushion test the OP requested on my table and post the results in a little while.
 
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