Do we at AZB have a responsibility to the lesser known cue-makers?

shadowcat

shadowcat

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I often wonder why some cue-makers get a lot more talk and discussion than others on AZB (both good and bad). When I was doing research for a cuemaker that could make the cue I wanted at a price I could afford to pay, there were only a few that fit the bill, and very little info on a lot of them here. I ended up buying one from Greg Sirca (posted pics in http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=171611) at a price that i couldn't pass up, but doing research on AZB, there weren't too many recent threads, aside from his for-sale threads, that showed up. However, the consensus from those posts was that his cues had a great look and hit very well, so I decided to go with him.

What I wonder is... do we at AZB prefer some cue-makers over others? If so, why? I'm sure there are many people who post here who've never handled a Black Boar, or shot with a Searing, Gilbert, Tad, Southwest, Szambotti, etc. Do we consign very talented, very competent cue-makers to the sidelines because we don't talk about them enough?

It seems like the big names are the ones that get the press, and the community decides on cue-maker reputations for the up-and-comers off of a few posts from enthusiastic members. I'm sure the praise is well deserved, but what of the buyers who buy cues from reputable custom cue-makers who CAN'T go to the shows to display their wares? What of the cue-maker hobbyist who does it for fun, yet still makes a great cue? What if there is no one to post how good a cue-maker's cues are? What is our responsibility as a community to all the cue-makers who make a quality product for "the rest of us," who don't have the bankroll to buy a high end cue and want to play with the cue they buy instead of keeping it as a closet queen?

In dealing with Greg Sirca, I found a cue-maker who paid a great deal of attention to detail, who kept me updated through emails, listened to what I wanted, was up front about what he could do with the equipment in his shop, made suggestions that helped shape my design, and ultimately delivered an affordable cue that I am very satisfied with.
 
12310bch

12310bch

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No.

Great, unheralded, cue makers go directly to heaven. :angel2:
(That's a paraphrase of something Twain said about writers.)
They don't need we mere mortals to judge them.
 
Maniac

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
IMO, I believe we should report our dealings with any and all cuemakers, both good dealings and bad ones. I don't necessarily feel it is our responsibility to do so, just that a few words about a great transaction or a deal gone bad may help another buyer in a future transaction of their own.

It is up to each individual to understand that even the best cuemaker out there throws out a "lemon" every once in a while and even the worst of cuemakers may "get it right" on a cue occasionally.

This is why I feel it is helpful to have the most input availiable, to determine who is actually doing quality work on a REGULAR basis.

Maniac
 
jason

jason

Unprofessional everything
Silver Member
To answer your question, no we don't have a responsibility.

That being said, I think it is great to talk about all cue makers good and bad and it does provide a service to all buyers. But a responsibility? No.
 
Worminator

Worminator

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Cuemakers crafting quality product will rise to the top with or without AZ. How many people knew about Ron Haley 7 or 8 years ago?

I think the word gets out quicker, both good and bad, through a forum like AZ, but quality and style will always shake out in the long run.
 
Q

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
It is the builder's responsibility to make a name for himself & he/she can take it as far as they want. It's just like any other industry, the best product gets the best reviews & aquires the best name, which in turns generates the best business. Sure there are always going to be "sleepers", meaning builders that do awesome work but never seem to get recognized, but it's not the buying public's fault & it's not their responsibility to force feed such builders. It's the builder's responsibility to do that on his/her own.

Take notice to how things work. The most known builders are involved in the public marketplace in one way or the other. It might be shows, it might be paid advertising, etc. The quiet & shy guys who do not openly interact, no matter how great their cues may be, do not ever seem to reach a high status. As in any business, your relationship with the buying public means everything.

Example, a guy builds a perfect cue every time but is a reclusive hermit. He likely won't do well. Another guy builds an ok cue but is very social, charasmatic & people generally really like him. He's going to sell a ton of cues. Now take a guy who builds a great cue, has a great personality & is a hit with the general population. That guy is going somewhere. To the opposite extreme, a guy builds an ok cue but is the reclusive hermit. He won't be doing business for long. And then there's always the jackass who seems to be in trouble for this or that, does only ok work, but is constantly in the public eye for something negative. He'll sell more product than the recuse that builds a perfect cue, simply because people know him. It's market dynamics. Cuemakers gotta do more than just build a good cue. And nobody can do it for them.
 
Last edited:
bobroberts

bobroberts

Pool player
Silver Member
qbilder said:
It is the builder's responsibility to make a name for himself & he/she can take it as far as they want. It's just like any other industry, the best product gets the best reviews & aquires the best name, which in turns generates the best business. Sure there are always going to be "sleepers", meaning builders that do awesome work but never seem to get recognized, but it's not the buying public's fault & it's not their responsibility to force feed such builders. It's the builder's responsibility to do that on his/her own.

Take notice to how things work. The most known builders are involved in the public marketplace in one way or the other. It might be shows, it might be paid advertising, etc. The quiet & shy guys who do not openly interact, no matter how great their cues may be, do not ever seem to reach a high status. As in any business, your relationship with the buying public means everything.

Example, a guy builds a perfect cue every time but is a reclusive hermit. He likely won't do well. Another guy builds an ok cue but is very social, charasmatic & people generally really like him. He's going to sell a ton of cues. Now take a guy who builds a great cue, has a great personality & is a hit with the general population. That guy is going somewhere. To the opposite extreme, a guy builds an ok cue but is the reclusive hermit. He won't be doing business for long. And then there's always the jackass who seems to be in trouble for this or that, does only ok work, but is constantly in the public eye for something negative. He'll sell more product than the recuse that builds a perfect cue, simply because people know him. It's market dynamics. Cuemakers gotta do more than just build a good cue. And nobody can do it for them.
Click to expand...

Great post,Its like that in any business.Word of mouth spreads quickly if your doing the right things for your clients.
 
Fatboy

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
bobroberts said:
Great post,Its like that in any business.Word of mouth spreads quickly if your doing the right things for your clients.
Click to expand...

I agree with you and eric,

also AZ is a message board not a public service-it owes nothing to anyone.
 
D

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i don't think we owe anybody
but i always try to boost cue makers who i know to be great,or good

jerry rauenzahn is such a depedale cue maker,he meets every time he promises and his work is great
so i tell people

bob owen is another trustworthy,talented and dependable one,i love his cues especially his box cues

JC made me a couple of nice long cues that played great, his work is reasonable
even under priced,he is a good guy so i try to help him

i do it because they deserve the help or boost

some very talented famous guys are not trustworthy,slow etc,i usually say nothing
but i have quit buying from them even though the work is nice
 
Black-Balled

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I will go along with this. A man gotta produce a top quality product to be seen with the same eye as those who have proven themselves.

I'd offer Pat Diveney, as an example of a maker who worked his way up the chain.

As far as Sirca goes, I dealt with him once and he was absolutely a man of his word.
Worminator said:
Cuemakers crafting quality product will rise to the top with or without AZ. How many people knew about Ron Haley 7 or 8 years ago?

I think the word gets out quicker, both good and bad, through a forum like AZ, but quality and style will always shake out in the long run.
Click to expand...
 
Type79

Type79

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
qbilder said:
It is the builder's responsibility to make a name for himself & he/she can take it as far as they want. It's just like any other industry, the best product gets the best reviews & aquires the best name, which in turns generates the best business. Sure there are always going to be "sleepers", meaning builders that do awesome work but never seem to get recognized, but it's not the buying public's fault & it's not their responsibility to force feed such builders. It's the builder's responsibility to do that on his/her own.

Take notice to how things work. The most known builders are involved in the public marketplace in one way or the other. It might be shows, it might be paid advertising, etc. The quiet & shy guys who do not openly interact, no matter how great their cues may be, do not ever seem to reach a high status. As in any business, your relationship with the buying public means everything.

Example, a guy builds a perfect cue every time but is a reclusive hermit. He likely won't do well. Another guy builds an ok cue but is very social, charasmatic & people generally really like him. He's going to sell a ton of cues. Now take a guy who builds a great cue, has a great personality & is a hit with the general population. That guy is going somewhere. To the opposite extreme, a guy builds an ok cue but is the reclusive hermit. He won't be doing business for long. And then there's always the jackass who seems to be in trouble for this or that, does only ok work, but is constantly in the public eye for something negative. He'll sell more product than the recuse that builds a perfect cue, simply because people know him. It's market dynamics. Cuemakers gotta do more than just build a good cue. And nobody can do it for them.
Click to expand...

I also agree with this.

I will add that like many internet forums, not all of the knowledgeable people, or in this case worthy cue makers frequent forums or visit them on a regular basis.

The problem with using the internet to determine who might be an experienced cue maker is that people tend to give greater weight to names that are repeated over and over. The other factor is that the definition of "cue maker" is so loose these days that it could be someone who has only made 5 cues or is merely assembling parts (Please don't invoke the name of GB.)

The way things are going in billiards, the budget for a custom cue for many is $300-$500 and the preferred style seems to be a Plain Jane made from two contrasting woods.
 
GoldCrown

GoldCrown

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
jason said:
To answer your question, no we don't have a responsibility.

That being said, I think it is great to talk about all cue makers good and bad and it does provide a service to all buyers. But a responsibility? No.
Click to expand...

Ditto. Case closed.
 
O

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Worminator said:
Cuemakers crafting quality product will rise to the top with or without AZ. How many people knew about Ron Haley 7 or 8 years ago?

I think the word gets out quicker, both good and bad, through a forum like AZ, but quality and style will always shake out in the long run.
Click to expand...

I remember a guy telling me Randy Mobley was a name to look out for I'm like who the heck is he never heard of him still not sure how he knew him as I never saw one cue here or anywhere then few yrs later he pops up and he was right his cues came one here and got good money

1
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had Richard Black make me a cue back in the 70s...a couple years after he started. He made it pretty far since then.
 
jimmyco

jimmyco

NRA4Life
Silver Member
I hope cue makers do not rely on forum members for support.

The world wide membership here makes up approximately 1/2% of frequent pool players (more than 25 times a year) in the US alone.

The word of mouth, both good and not so good, is great for AZB members, as it may drive sales or steer us clear of certain builders.

But in the grand scheme of things, the significance is not.

YMMV
 
book collector

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We had a younger guy here in town, that started making cues on the side.
I thought I would help him out, and in the meantime, get a cue that would be exactly what I wanted, at a discount, from more well known makers.
I told him what I wanted, and he gave me a price, that I could have had one of the top 5 makers, build one for me.
I passed.
At the time he was posting in here a lot, and I saw that he referred to himself, as an A player, quite often.
I was having serious health problems at the time, and was playing C level at best.
He couldn't beat me at anything, even at that level.
I guess this is the age of "winners",. and none of it has to be true, you just toss it out there, and hope there are some suckers in the pond.
I guess my answer to the question is, yes and no.
Let their work and actions speak for themselves, if they do good work, but have not been acknowledged yet , don't be afraid to buy a cue from them, it will undoubtedly be a good investment, if they do shoddy work and won't tell the truth, why deal with them at all, at any level?
 
Last edited:
Bavafongoul

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Az has zero responsibility to do anything for any cue-maker, brand new or long established.

The Forum community has none either to promote a cue-maker. Only a cue-maker's clients do.

When the cue-maker does a better than average job making the cue , i.e., the customer is pleased.

the new cue-ower will post and boast about the cue. If the cue-maker does a crappy job, the sword

cuts both ways if and when the cue-maker doesn't do the right thing for any complaining client. If you

buy a used cue made by a cue-maker you never tried or previously owned and like it, then post away.

The Forum is a place to express your opinion or sell/buy something but it's always a individual thing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top