The Mosconi slipstroke

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Here it is in all it's beauty (two first shots are clearly slip strokes).
Also mosconi runs 15 balls in under 2 minutes, shoots alternately with his right and left hand (1 of which is a draw stroke) all while the guy is talking to him, if that sort of stuff interests you.
https://youtu.be/1ts7YqHRrjc?t=379
 

pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here it is in all it's beauty (two first shots are clearly slip strokes).
Also mosconi runs 15 balls in under 2 minutes, shoots alternately with his right and left hand (1 of which is a draw stroke) all while the guy is talking to him, if that sort of stuff interests you.
https://youtu.be/1ts7YqHRrjc?t=379

Lou, where are you?

I am puzzled, how can you think this is a slip stroke.

He doesn't even do his occasionally employed slight hand adjustment.

His hand doesn't move back on the cue at all.

Dale
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I played Mosconi an exhibition match in 1964 and I don't remember a slip stroke.

I do remember him running 85 perfect balls and out on me.

I did give a world class performance as a rack boy.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Lou, where are you?

I am puzzled, how can you think this is a slip stroke.

He doesn't even do his occasionally employed slight hand adjustment.

His hand doesn't move back on the cue at all.

Dale

Watch the breakshot in 0.25x speed. You don't see his hand slipping backwards on the final backswing?! I can't understand how someone could possibly miss that. The second one is equally clear. Now, he doesn't use this stroke on every shot, but I think this footage proves that he at least did it some of the time.
 
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Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Lou, where are you?

I am puzzled, how can you think this is a slip stroke.

He doesn't even do his occasionally employed slight hand adjustment.

His hand doesn't move back on the cue at all.

Dale

I'm sorry, but you need a new set of eyes or at least a new monitor. Slow the video down to see it more clearly.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Some pictures. First picture shows hand before slipping, second after slipping on final backstroke. The movement is fast, and the resolution not very good, but if you watch the video it becomes much clearer. You will notice the distance has increased between his forefinger and the white ring in front of the wrap.

If you watch the first breakshot again, you can see his entire routine from one shot to the next. After his breakshot, he keeps his grip after the stroke, as he evaluates the outcome of his stroke. Then, as he moves away from that shot, to his next shot, his grip slips way forward on the cue, in preparation of his next stroke. He starts with his hand at the top of the wrap, then does little practice strokes/adjustments to get his hand position more towards the middle of the wrap (this is not the slip stroke itself, but a typical thing that many slip strokers do). Then, if he slips he does a rather fast backstroke, in which his hand moves backwards and the cue goes backwards a little as well, but the hand goes further back than the cue itself, so as to reposition the grip further back on the grip. That to me is the definition of a slip stroke.
 

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ugotactionTX

I'm in dead rack!
Silver Member
Yeah its pretty obvious that he's slip stroking it occasionally... especially in the break shot where the link picks up. Its a beautiful thing for sure. Of course, NO one had a prettier slip stroke than the great Jimmy Moore. That thing was ridiculous.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What I wonder is why so many players back then used the slip stroke and hardly anybody uses it today.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
What I wonder is why so many players back then used the slip stroke and hardly anybody uses it today.

I honestly don't know? I've been experimenting with it a bit, and it really does help on long, tough shots. Maybe, it's because there are fewer hard(meaning speed) shots in the game today?

I tend to keep my grip fairly far back on the cue, so I'm going to buy a lucasi with the linen going all the way back to the buttcap, in order to see if this will truely make a difference in my slip stroking. As it is, the butt/linen transition sometimes throws me off a little.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yeah its pretty obvious that he's slip stroking it occasionally... especially in the break shot where the link picks up. Its a beautiful thing for sure. Of course, NO one had a prettier slip stroke than the great Jimmy Moore. That thing was ridiculous.

i would suggest adding al bonife "new york blackie " as having a monster slip stroke
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
What I wonder is why so many players back then used the slip stroke and hardly anybody uses it today.

i have that in the days of "mud balls" and slow cloth and 5x10 tables
the slip stroke gave more power to your stroke need for those playing conditions
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
video clearly shows his slip stroke
it is just so smooth and quick that you can miss it
i wish w could have seen his lefty shot grip hand to see if he slip stroked those
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i have that in the days of "mud balls" and slow cloth and 5x10 tables
the slip stroke gave more power to your stroke need for those playing conditions

I don't know, maybe. My pool room is long enough but not quite as wide as I'd like it. When the cue ball is on the long rail and object ball straight across I use a slip stroke simply because I can't use a normal stroke. It feels awkward though because I don't normally use it.
 

Player

I'm your huckleberry
Silver Member
Great examples of a slip stroke there. Willie used it a lot.

I've tried playing around with it some off and on but never really got comfortable with it. Sure is pretty to watch though.

Thanks for the video! Never saw that one before. :thumbup:
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lou, where are you?

I am puzzled, how can you think this is a slip stroke.

He doesn't even do his occasionally employed slight hand adjustment.

His hand doesn't move back on the cue at all.

Dale


I is here, Dale I saw this this morning and did the "ah man, not again" face in palm plant. We have been over this so many times...

Soooooo, one more time (with feeling and in five part harmony), here are two previous posts from about five years ago. Y'all make up your own minds.

My opinion as to whether Willie Mosconi used a slip stroke is based upon seeing him in person five times, give or take a time, in the late 60's early 70's. This was watching him play a match to 125 and then doing trick shots. My recollection is that I never saw him use a slip stroke.

I very quickly, on fast forward, just watched three videos, which I believe most of you can access one way or the other.

First, I watched Mosconi vs Caras at the Lakeshore Athelitic Club in Chicago in 1963. Caras wins 125-26. In that video I counted 18 shots where Mosconi was definitely not using a slip stroke or late grip adjustment. Six shots, where because of the camera angle, I couldn't determine what he did.

Next, I watched the Mosconi Straight Pool Break Shot video from 1980 in which he runs 28 balls. On 20 shots he does not use a slip stroke or last second grip adjustment. On seven shots the camera angle does not allow a determination. And on one shot *maybe* he does a last minute grip adjustment or slip stroke.

Last I watched the I've Got a Secret video.from '62. I counted three shots where he either did a last minute grip adjustment, or perhaps a slip stroke. On four shots he does not. And on eight shots you can't tell. On the two trick shots he shoots (six-on-one and the RR Shot) he does not use a slip stroke.

So what do you have after all that? Three, perhaps four shots on TV -- in a non-competive setting -- in which, maybe, he used a slip stroke and 42 shots where he didn't and another 21 where we can't tell (but he probably didn't), plus my recollection of his shooting over 600 balls in competitive exhibition play and however many times Dale saw him play, from which neither of us recall a slip stroke.

I don't know what was going on those three shots Maybe it was a new cue or he had just got it rewrapped and it was slippery, or the TV lights affected him, or he was just goofing. We dont know. But from the vast preponderance of evidence -- video and eye witness -- Willie Mosconi did not use a slip stroke.

Lou Figueroa

Watching the videos, I tend to agree that Mosconi did not use a slip stroke on all shots, but I think he does "adjust his grip" (however we want to call it) on power shots so he ends up gripping closer to perpendicular. For those of us who saw him shoot more trick shots than regular shots (sadly) he may have seemed to usually slip.

Lou Figueroa
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
I is here, Dale I saw this this morning and did the "ah man, not again" face in palm plant. We have been over this so many times...

Soooooo, one more time (with feeling and in five part harmony), here are two previous posts from about five years ago. Y'all make up your own minds.





Lou Figueroa

What have we been over exactly? You claiming he didn't use a slip stroke? Well anyone with a functioning set of eyes can see clear as day that he used a slip stroke at least 2 times in that run. What next, are you going to tell us it's impossible to bend a bank-shot?:rolleyes:

I realize that you are somewhat of a professional at denying things that are blatantly obvious to anyone, it was your career after all, but this...How do you explain what he did in the video? "Hand adjustment"? What a crock!
Did you even look at the video? What about the pictures? It's the definition of a slip stroke. I don't particularly care if he used a slip stroke or not, but I care about the truth. His hand slips backward on the cue on the final backstroke AT LEAST twice in that video. You have to be legally blind not to see it. There is no excuse.

This is clear evidence that you should never believe any witness testimony 100%. Some people have vested interests or are just to blind or ignorant to perceive what is happening before their eyes. Since you cannot see what is happening in the video, I must conclude that your powers of observations are poor, and that there is a possibility that he DID in fact use the slipstroke a lot, even if that could never be proven. Luckily we have this video now, in case someone claims Willie never ran more than 10 balls:rolleyes:.
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What have we been over exactly? You claiming he didn't use a slip stroke? Well anyone with a functioning set of eyes can see clear as day that he used a slip stroke at least 2 times in that run. What next, are you going to tell us it's impossible to bend a bank-shot?:rolleyes:

I realize that you are somewhat of a professional at denying things that are blatantly obvious to anyone, it was your career after all, but this...How do you explain what he did in the video? "Hand adjustment"? What a crock!
Did you even look at the video? What about the pictures? It's the definition of a slip stroke.

This is clear evidence that you should never believe any witness testimony 100%. Some people have vested interests or are just to blind or ignorant to perceive what is happening before their eyes. Luckily we have this video now, in case someone claims Willie never ran more than 10 balls:rolleyes:.


Two quick things. First, your IGaS video is one of the ones I mention in my video review post. So yes, I did look at the video, today and several years ago. Second, you make your opinion of my military service pretty clear. So you may be able to understand why I'm not going to waste any further time with you. Civil debate with you does not seem possible.

So, as we use to tell the cranky old ladies who'd occasionally call us at The Pentagon: Thank you for your interest in national defense. Have a nice day.

Lou Figueroa
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Two quick things. First, your IGaS video is one of the ones I mention in my video review post. So yes, I did look at the video, today and several years ago. Second, you make your opinion of my military service pretty clear. So you may be able to understand why I'm not going to waste any further time with you. Civil debate with you does not seem possible.

So, as we use to tell the cranky old ladies who'd occasionally call us at The Pentagon: Thank you for your interest in national defense. Have a nice day.

Lou Figueroa

Sure it is. When someone present a video or picture, you acknowledge what is there. You may explain it away as a weather balloon or whatever, but what is there is there. His hand slips on the final backstroke. That is a slip stroke. On this occation he used a slip stroke, in a controlled manner. That does not happen accidentally and claiming that is laughable at best, at worst a desperate attempt to explain away what is blatantly present.

I have no interest in your military service what so ever. It was just too much of a temptation to make the connection between that and what is happening here. I also have no interest in your national defense. Have a nice day.
 
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pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Watch the breakshot in 0.25x speed. You don't see his hand slipping backwards on the final backswing?! I can't understand how someone could possibly miss that. The second one is equally clear. Now, he doesn't use this stroke on every shot, but I think this footage proves that he at least did it some of the time.


That is exactly what I did - and his hand does not slide back.

IMHO - I think the way he opens his grip hand up, just like the Brit Snooker coaches
teach, must be what all you fellows think is a slip.

Or not.

Dale
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
That is exactly what I did - and his hand does not slide back.

IMHO - I think the way he opens his grip hand up, just like the Brit Snooker coaches
teach, must be what all you fellows think is a slip.

Or not.

Dale

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. Did you at least see it on the second shot? Edit: Nevermind. I don't want to argue about this. It's just too silly to me.

I hereby state that Lou Figueroa is right. Willie never used a slipstroke, except for the times when he did. Those were all accidental.

I have had enough of this forum for a long time. This has all been a giant waste of time for me. Might as well go argue with some flat earthers.
 

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