Why Do Low-Squirt Cues Jump Like White Guys?

Patrick Johnson · Jul 5, 2015

Low-squirt shafts are notoriously hard to jump with, and I've never heard a convincing reason why. My custom shaft is very low-squirt and very hard to jump with. 1st generation Predators I've had were hard to jump with. Any house cue with a decent tip is easier than all of them.

Some say it's because low-squirt cues are lighter - but so are jump cues by design, so that doesn't seem right.

Some say it's because the tip doesn't glance off the CB fast enough - but that seems backward to me... why would less mass move slower?

My sense is that I have to hit harder with low-squirt cues to get altitude, which makes me think it might be that less end mass translates to even less "involved" mass. Is it as simple as "hit it harder"?

So WTF (What's The Facts)? Is this one of those road agent secrets? Has Dr. Dave been frittering his time away having a life rather than testing this critical question? Or did I just miss the memo during my vacation?

pj
chgo

slide13 · Jul 5, 2015

I don't really know, but my thinking is thst jumping requires the cue ball to squirt away from the shaft to perform thou,ping action. With a LD shaft, the shaft starts t move out of the way and it ends up glancing off the cue ball instead of causing it to pop. Not sure what the physics are behind that theory, just the I pressin I've gotten. Easiest cue I've ever jumped with is my Jacoby with a brass ferrule, so very high deflection and heavy at the tip.

ivicafranic · Jul 5, 2015

They are too soft

And not just shaft but ferulles as well

SilverCue · Jul 5, 2015

I also think they are harder to Mass'e with.

JoeyInCali · Jul 5, 2015

B/c they are high deflection shafts.

center pocket · Jul 5, 2015

You want the cue ball to deflect not the shaft during a jump shot. Low deflection cues will naturally want to deflect before the cue ball can deflect into a jumping trajectory.

RBC · Jul 5, 2015

Patrick

I've thought pretty hard about that very question for a long time, and don't really have a decent answer. I've gone through the most common thoughts, but don't think any of them are the real answer. I'd love to know the reason why.

Just to muddy the waters, our OB Lift and OB Lift Pro are actually somewhat LD. They aren't near as LD as our other shafts, but they do use our laminated maple ferrule with a large through hole. They don't have any hole, but are still much lighter in tip end mass than a traditional shaft and certainly a lot lighter than brass ferruled shafts. I really wanted the jump shaft to be LD because I felt that accuracy in jump shots isn't given enough consideration. Most of us are just happy to hit the ball. I found through testing that the biggest variable in the accuracy of jump shots is tip placement. Our stance is up right, aiming is difficult, and our stroke length is tremendously limited. All leading to hitting off center on many of our jump shots. It only made sense to try to make an LD jump shaft. It took almost 4 years of trying different combinations, but I finally landed on the combination that works very very well. It's not only easy to get over the interfering ball, but many players find that they make more of their jump shots instead of just getting a good hit. The shafts aren't super LD, so it is a trade off. But the combination seems to be working very well.

I'm looking forward to what you come up with!

Royce

Drop The Rock · Jul 5, 2015

Say you have two hammers. Hammer A) the head is made out of rubber and hammer B) is made out of iron. The both have wooden handles and hypothetically both weigh the exact same. The impact caused by hammer A) should have less kinetic energy transferred than hammer B).

This is all theoretical and of course hypothetical but if I had to take a guess this is probably why. Now if force equals Mass x Acceleration its quite possible that less mass towards the tip of the cue generates less force. I think this is also why most ld shafts seem to hit "softer" than solid maple w/ regular ferrules.

I could be completely wrong but I thought I would take a stab at it PJ.

Patrick Johnson · Jul 5, 2015

slide13 said:
jumping requires the cue ball to squirt away from the shaft

center pocket said:
You want the cue ball to deflect not the shaft

But it seems like that could only help for a below center hit, and jump shots can be made hitting centerball or even above.

ivicafranic said:
They are too softAnd not just shaft but ferulles as well

Drop The Rock said:
The impact caused by [rubber] hammer should have less kinetic energy transferred than [iron] hammer.

Not all low-squirt shafts have flexible shafts or soft ferrules - mine doesn't have either.

SilverCue said:
I also think they are harder to Mass'e with.

I haven't noticed any difficulty with that. If you're talking about needing squirt to get the CB out around the blocker, I don't think it's needed for that.

JoeyInCali said:
B/c they are high deflection shafts.

Well, yeah, that's the given. What's the reason?

Thanks for all the ideas - if we get enough comments we might be able to see some common themes.

pj
chgo

Allen Brown · Jul 5, 2015

White men can jump. Like the shaft, you have to know what you are doing.

Patrick Johnson · Jul 5, 2015

RBC said:
Patrick

I've thought pretty hard about that very question for a long time, and don't really have a decent answer.

Damn! I was hoping you'd be the one, Royce.

I've gone through the most common thoughts, but don't think any of them are the real answer. I'd love to know the reason why.

I'm with you - maybe we'll hear some new ideas to explore.

Just to muddy the waters, our OB Lift and OB Lift Pro are actually somewhat LD. They aren't near as LD as our other shafts, but they do use our laminated maple ferrule with a large through hole. They don't have any hole, but are still much lighter in tip end mass than a traditional shaft and certainly a lot lighter than brass ferruled shafts. I really wanted the jump shaft to be LD because I felt that accuracy in jump shots isn't given enough consideration. Most of us are just happy to hit the ball. I found through testing that the biggest variable in the accuracy of jump shots is tip placement. Our stance is up right, aiming is difficult, and our stroke length is tremendously limited. All leading to hitting off center on many of our jump shots. It only made sense to try to make an LD jump shaft. It took almost 4 years of trying different combinations, but I finally landed on the combination that works very very well. It's not only easy to get over the interfering ball, but many players find that they make more of their jump shots instead of just getting a good hit. The shafts aren't super LD, so it is a trade off. But the combination seems to be working very well.

Hope it's a big success!

I'm looking forward to what you come up with!

Well, I've already come up with my big idea: less "involved" mass. If the real scientists look in they can probably correct me on that.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson · Jul 5, 2015

Allen Brown said:
White men can jump. Like the shaft, you have to know what you are doing.

If you know a technique that helps LD shafts jump better, you're my hero. It would also be a clue to what's the matter with them.

pj
chgo

overlord · Jul 5, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
Low-squirt shafts are notoriously hard to jump with, and I've never heard a convincing reason why. My custom shaft is very low-squirt and very hard to jump with. 1st generation Predators I've had were hard to jump with. Any house cue with a decent tip is easier than all of them.

Some say it's because low-squirt cues are lighter - but so are jump cues by design, so that doesn't seem right.

Some say it's because the tip doesn't glance off the CB fast enough - but that seems backward to me... why would less mass move slower?

My sense is that I have to hit harder with low-squirt cues to get altitude, which makes me think it might be that less end mass translates to even less "involved" mass. Is it as simple as "hit it harder"?

So WTF (What's The Facts)? Is this one of those road agent secrets? Has Dr. Dave been frittering his time away having a life rather than testing this critical question? Or did I just miss the memo during my vacation?

pj
chgo

LD shafts with softer ferrules absorb energy compressing into the cue ball. With a softer ferrule you can draw the heck out of the cue ball.

It is a lot harder to massee the cue ball with a LD shaft as well.

Patrick Johnson · Jul 5, 2015

overlord said:
LD shafts with softer ferrules absorb energy compressing into the cue ball.

That sounds reasonable, but my very low squirt shaft has a hard ferrule and hard tip, and jumps like it's crippled.

With a softer ferrule you can draw the heck out of the cue ball.

I'll take your word for this, but I can't imagine why.

It is a lot harder to massee the cue ball with a LD shaft as well.

I've heard this a lot, but don't get it. I have no trouble with masse.

pj
chgo

SilverCue · Jul 5, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
That sounds reasonable, but my very low squirt shaft has a hard ferrule and hard tip, and jumps like it's crippled.

I'll take your word for this, but I can't imagine why.

I've heard this a lot, but don't get it. I have no trouble with masse.

pj
chgo

I can't mass'e with my Jacoby Edge Hybrid and Pique shots make the cue ball reverse without going forward.
But I have no problem with my D3 shafts. Not as low deflection as the JEH.

pt109 · Jul 5, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
So WTF (What's The Facts)? Is this one of those road agent secrets? Has Dr. Dave been frittering his time away having a life rather than testing this critical question? Or did I just miss the memo during my vacation?

pj
chgo

Lol about the Doc.

I feel a good jump cue simply has to be stiff...if the shaft doesn't give, the cue ball will.
....I've seen some amazing jump shots with just the butt, with a rubber bumper.

In my opinion. LD shafts are easier to masse with.

trinacria · Jul 5, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51AqlfCeCLE

Nick B · Jul 5, 2015

SilverCue said:
I also think they are harder to Mass'e with.

I don't see this. The cueball "pushes out" (squirts) less but one you adjust for different trajectory the curving effect is about the same.

Nick

12squared · Jul 5, 2015

I believe it's because the LD shafts do not have enough mass to drive the cueball into the slate.

victorl · Jul 5, 2015

12squared said:
I believe it's because the LD shafts do not have enough mass to drive the cueball into the slate.

That's what I think as well. You want a solid, front-heavy cue and shaft for jumping and an LD shaft is just the opposite of that.

Why Do Low-Squirt Cues Jump Like White Guys?

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