8 Ball breaks

jimtauer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently played in the M-8 (Minnesota) state tournament. I was knocked out in my 3rd match. My opponent in this match made 2 8-ball breaks in a row (he was going for it using a 2nd ball break every time), and 3 8-ball breaks in the seven games we played.

I don't play that many tournaments. Is this common? I would have to believe that no matter how good your break is, the statistical probability of actually making the 8 in 3 games out of 7, in a tournament, is very low, especially on a "foreign" table, one you have never played on before. Maybe all this particular guy does is practice his breaks? He pretty much won on breaks and safeties, he wasn't a great shot maker.

Not looking for excuses on how badly I did in the tournament, just wondering if this is something I should expect to see on a regular basis. It was pretty disheartening as obviously, there is nothing you can do to prevent it, except win every rack and prevent the opponent from breaking....
 

Banks

Banned
Not on a regular basis, but occasionally you may find somebody that's either pretty good at it or just getting the luck. My first ever match in apa singles in vegas, the guy got two in a race to five, the second being the hill-hill game.
 

drv4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very uncommon, but like banks said some people are really good at it especially on certain tables. Where we play league, in a whole session the whole league will maybe have 2 or 3 8 on the breaks for the entire session as our tables for some reason are extremely tough to get an 8 on the break. Where our tricups and and top gun tourney are played I swear there is one a match when two higher skill levels play as their tables are for whatever reason much easier to do it on.
 

dabarbr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On the right table and with a good second ball break the eight ball could be the fastest moving ball on the table. I've had at least three in a row a few times.
 

JasBy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I too have had back to back 8 ball breaks - and having played at the M8 tournament also, I think it was the fast diamond tables that facilitate it more. The initial hit spreads the outer balls and opens the 8 up for when the cue comes back in the 2nd time. On a lot of valleys the cue can't come back in clean because the original spread won't allow it. I've given up on the 2nd ball break on the slower tables, as the 8 ball doesn't drop often enough to justify the horrendous clumping that usually results.
 

Skippy27

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Statistically it is done about 15% of the time by pros or something like that.

That would be twice in 20 games so it is safe to assume it was just a good night for the guy.

I have witness a guy on my team do it 3 times in a row and then not do it a single time for weeks on the same table with the same balls using the same break stick.

Many people complain about the magic rack making it easier but I personally see no more 8 ball breaks with it then without so racking tight does not necessarily make it so.
 

JE54

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What is the best position to place the cb ? What English ? Where are you aiming at on the ob ?
 

Baxter

Out To Win
Silver Member
What kind of rules count the 8 on the break as a win? Is that an APA thing? In BCA rules, the 8 spots and the breaker has the option to continue shooting where the cue ball lays, re-rack and break, or re-rack and make your opponent break.
 

pogmothoin

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I played a match once where my opponent won 3 games by making the 8 on the break. Was it skill or just plain luck? I thought it was a combination of the two. The second ball break struck correctly certainly increases your chances of making the 8 but with everything that's going on I think it takes a bit of luck to drop it. Sometimes it's just the other guy's day.

I don't like the second ball break because of how the balls spread. It's harder to run out from that break IMHO. But i will almost always drop some balls with it.

One thing I'd be interested in learning is how to increase your chances of making a ball, any ball, using a more traditional head ball break. I can get 10 balls or more, 5 and up is typical, past the side pocket without making a ball. So I get a great break with lots of action but it usually translates to advantage for the bad guy because I'm not dropping a ball.

I usually break anywhere from 1 to 2 inches off the spot out to the first diamond and get a great spread but my percentage of pocketing a ball is probably under 10%. Any thoughts?
 

Banks

Banned
What kind of rules count the 8 on the break as a win? Is that an APA thing? In BCA rules, the 8 spots and the breaker has the option to continue shooting where the cue ball lays, re-rack and break, or re-rack and make your opponent break.

Apa, some local leagues and sometimes local tournaments count it. Not sure of anything else outside of those and bca.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not really about making a ball, but some people have said it's harder to run out with a second ball break. Not always and may be equal or better than the first ball hit in many cases.

I find that if I have a bad racker or a bad rack or a bad table that the second ball hit overcomes that and opens the rack more, or at least does not create a clump of 8 balls in the middle around the 8. Plus with so many balls to shoot at, unlike 9 ball, the cueball position or ball position after the break is a lot less of an issue.

I also don't think that the 15% 8 on the break for pros, or anyone, is correct.

If you watch the recent 8 ball doubles with Corey, Mike, Efren and Francisco, that match has 3 of the top breakers in the world in one set. I don't remember a single 8 ball dropping off the break.

I don't like ANY game winning ball being counted off the break myself. I don't want to win that way and I sure and hell don't want to lose that way LOL

In TAP it counts as a win, but I've never gotten 2 in a row, I did get 2 of 3 once. The other league I played, USAPL, neither the 8 nor the 9 counts as a win on the break, but they may have been just our local bylaws and not a league wide rule.
 
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Skippy27

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I also don't think that the 15% 8 on the break for pros, or anyone, is correct.

If you watch the recent 8 ball doubles with Corey, Mike, Efren and Francisco, that match has 3 of the top breakers in the world in one set. I don't remember a single 8 ball dropping off the break.

Dr. Dave has on his website something that would support you showing it is more like 2%. I know I read this in a book, but I will have to check. It could be from either the 8 ball Bible or the Science of Pocket Billiards.

Regardless seeing the hard facts that Dr. Dave laid on out his website with actual game breaks and actual number of 8 ball makes I would trust more. However, I dont know if what he has on there are from tournaments filled with Pros or the rules related to it. If the ball gets spotted or if it is a loss of game then they certainly would not try to make it thus the states would be much lower if it was even a field full of pros.
 

JasBy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For those that are asking - the M8 league in Minnesota counts the 8 on the break as a win, but we do not play a 'rack win' format. We play a format similar to APA 9 ball where you get points for each ball (in 8 ball it's 1 for each ball and 7 for the 8 for a total of 14 a rack) so if you put just the 8 ball in you win 7-0 which is half a rack score. Many of the areas in the league play on bar tables, so I am guessing that's why it is a win and not a pull and spot - saves $1.50.
 

CaptainDidactic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I too play M8. Good league. I had one eight ball break at the tournament. I looked at the rack and saw that it was conducive to an eight ball break which I learned from Joe Tuckers Racking secrets. The balls were racking pretty tightly during the event so that was the only 8 ball break I made.

When ever I rack for my opponent I make sure that the rack is as tight as I can get it, and if I can't get it tight I at least make sure that the side balls are tight to the eight ball. This makes it harder to break the eight in. A tight rack such as you get with the magic rack makes it harder to get the eight in on the break. That's why you don't see the eight going in with the pros very often. Of course if there was an automatic win on the break, Corey Duell would have it down to a science.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
8-ball from break is quite common to go in if break is to second ball.
Really rare if hit first ball.
 

Donny Lutz

Ferrule Cat
Silver Member
8 on break

What kind of rules count the 8 on the break as a win? Is that an APA thing? In BCA rules, the 8 spots and the breaker has the option to continue shooting where the cue ball lays, re-rack and break, or re-rack and make your opponent break.

ACS plays the same way. These are the World Standardized Rules and have been for some time. I like the World Standardized Rules. If all leagues used them it would avoid countless arguments and problems.
 

Inaction

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
8-ball from break is quite common to go in if break is to second ball.
Really rare if hit first ball.

I break straight into the head ball and rarely make the 8. This past fall, I was practicing over my lunch hour at the American Legion near the office. In 6 sessions, playing 4 or 5 racks each, I made the 8 in the right corner four times, and it ended up really close once or twice.

I made the 8 in the right side last night in league on a head ball break, right after the cue ball when into that side. I lost 10-0 after he ran out the easy layout.
 

DallasHopps

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I played some doubles tournaments with my wife years ago that used a handicap based games race format. My mediocre level and her terrible level put us at needing 2 games to win vs any other team, and I won at least 1 rack per match for 3 rounds as I recall. Valley tables with fast cloth make the second ball break a huge asset in a format where the 8 on break wins.
 
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