Turning Stone - rip off

cleary

Honestly, I'm a liar.
Silver Member
Living in the Northeast, I often get asked my my friends why I don't play in the Turning Stone tournaments.

First off, I'm terrible and it's a waste of $200+

But more importantly I don't like their policy. In order to play in the tournament, you must sign up about 9 months early because it fills up so quickly. It's not super easy to plan what I'll be doing on a weekend in 9 months unless it's something very important, things can change. Thing is, if you back out of the tournament 6 months before, Zuglan doesn't refund your money. That sucks. What sucks even more is that he still fills your spot in the tournament. Where does that money go if he doesn't refund? To the prize fund? To his pocket? Who knows... either way, that's super shady. I've had several friends try to give their spot away or sell their spot, only to be told they're not able. They lose their money and their spot gets taken. Stupid.
 

crazysnake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I like Zuglan, and I like Turning Stone. I think from his end he's just protecting himself, and that seems fair.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I like Zuglan, and I like Turning Stone. I think from his end he's just protecting himself, and that seems fair.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
Totally agree. The way i see tourn. entry fee is kinda like a deposit on an apartment. Its not the TD's problem if a player can't make it. Things can (and often do) happen between the the time money is sent and the event but that's on the player. Can't speak for Mr. Zuglan here but i'd predict that those un-returned funds are used to help run the tour. He must be doing something right as its one of the longest running tours in the country.
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Living in the Northeast, I often get asked my my friends why I don't play in the Turning Stone tournaments.

First off, I'm terrible and it's a waste of $200+

But more importantly I don't like their policy. In order to play in the tournament, you must sign up about 9 months early because it fills up so quickly. It's not super easy to plan what I'll be doing on a weekend in 9 months unless it's something very important, things can change. Thing is, if you back out of the tournament 6 months before, Zuglan doesn't refund your money. That sucks. What sucks even more is that he still fills your spot in the tournament. Where does that money go if he doesn't refund? To the prize fund? To his pocket? Who knows... either way, that's super shady. I've had several friends try to give their spot away or sell their spot, only to be told they're not able. They lose their money and their spot gets taken. Stupid.

As far as the expenses going to *any* tournament, I totally get it! :grin-square:

That said, most large events will not allow anyone to sell their spot because there is usually a waiting list, so those people on the waiting list get first dibs. That seems fair to me.

About not refunding the entry fee, that does seem odd. I don't think that is right. I can't imagine his reasoning for that. The person on the waiting list has to pay him, so the other $200 should be refunded. In fact, if it was my event, I'd make late payers pay an additional fee on top of the entry fee. Make them pay $250 if they pay after a certain time.

But here's the skinny on Joss tournaments at Turning Stone Casino. The rules are the same for everybody. There is no favoritism, which I like a lot, and you get paid right away in cash -- right away -- no ifs, ands, or buts. I like that too. This is why this tournament fills up ahead of time. It's a well-run tournament. The no favoritism is the best. Other tournaments may cater to pros and give them byes to arrive late, et cetera. Not Mike Zuglan. He'd forfeit Willie Mosconi if he arrived late for a match. :eek:

Having been to this event many times, I'd say you're missing out on a first-class pool extravaganza. Everything is under one roof, which I love, and the rooms are really comfy and nice. If you're free some weekend, you should just drive up and be a railbird for a day or two. Entry is free, no gate fees, and I promise you that you will be impressed with the facilities and the tournament, the way it's run.

Not refunding the entry fee, though, that does sting a little. I'm sure I'll hear back from somebody in the know after they read this post as to why, and if I do, I'll post the reasoning for it. :)

I'd love to meet you in person someday before I meet my maker. I think you're a cool cat and would be fun to be around and sweat a match or two. :)
 

Koop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I love the Turning Stone events and think Mike does one of the best jobs in the business. That said, I don't get the no refund thing either. It could be as simple as, if you need to withdraw, as soon as your spot is filled you get your money back. That way he ensures the spot is paid for and someone who can't make it isn't out that money. I would be ok if he kept the money because the spot didn't fill. If it fills there should be a stipulation that you can then get refunded.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Not refunding your money is a pile of crap.

Well, it only took 94 posts, but you finally got one right. lol

I figure if I can refund your money for chalk because you don't like it, certainly, a tourney can refund money when another buyer is lined up, willing and able, to pay for the privilege. I can't sell "used" chalk, so it would be a loss for me if someone every decided to return it ;)
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
As far as the expenses going to *any* tournament, I totally get it! :grin-square:

That said, most large events will not allow anyone to sell their spot because there is usually a waiting list, so those people on the waiting list get first dibs. That seems fair to me.

About not refunding the entry fee, that does seem odd. I don't think that is right. I can't imagine his reasoning for that. The person on the waiting list has to pay him, so the other $200 should be refunded. In fact, if it was my event, I'd make late payers pay an additional fee on top of the entry fee. Make them pay $250 if they pay after a certain time.

But here's the skinny on Joss tournaments at Turning Stone Casino. The rules are the same for everybody. There is no favoritism, which I like a lot, and you get paid right away in cash -- right away -- no ifs, ands, or buts. I like that too. This is why this tournament fills up ahead of time. It's a well-run tournament. The no favoritism is the best. Other tournaments may cater to pros and give them byes to arrive late, et cetera. Not Mike Zuglan. He'd forfeit Willie Mosconi if he arrived late for a match. :eek:

Having been to this event many times, I'd say you're missing out on a first-class pool extravaganza. Everything is under one roof, which I love, and the rooms are really comfy and nice. If you're free some weekend, you should just drive up and be a railbird for a day or two. Entry is free, no gate fees, and I promise you that you will be impressed with the facilities and the tournament, the way it's run.

Not refunding the entry fee, though, that does sting a little. I'm sure I'll hear back from somebody in the know after they read this post as to why, and if I do, I'll post the reasoning for it. :)

I'd love to meet you in person someday before I meet my maker. I think you're a cool cat and would be fun to be around and sweat a match or two. :)

Well said Jennie ;)
 

cleary

Honestly, I'm a liar.
Silver Member
As far as the expenses going to *any* tournament, I totally get it! :grin-square:

That said, most large events will not allow anyone to sell their spot because there is usually a waiting list, so those people on the waiting list get first dibs. That seems fair to me.

About not refunding the entry fee, that does seem odd. I don't think that is right. I can't imagine his reasoning for that. The person on the waiting list has to pay him, so the other $200 should be refunded. In fact, if it was my event, I'd make late payers pay an additional fee on top of the entry fee. Make them pay $250 if they pay after a certain time.

But here's the skinny on Joss tournaments at Turning Stone Casino. The rules are the same for everybody. There is no favoritism, which I like a lot, and you get paid right away in cash -- right away -- no ifs, ands, or buts. I like that too. This is why this tournament fills up ahead of time. It's a well-run tournament. The no favoritism is the best. Other tournaments may cater to pros and give them byes to arrive late, et cetera. Not Mike Zuglan. He'd forfeit Willie Mosconi if he arrived late for a match. :eek:

Having been to this event many times, I'd say you're missing out on a first-class pool extravaganza. Everything is under one roof, which I love, and the rooms are really comfy and nice. If you're free some weekend, you should just drive up and be a railbird for a day or two. Entry is free, no gate fees, and I promise you that you will be impressed with the facilities and the tournament, the way it's run.

Not refunding the entry fee, though, that does sting a little. I'm sure I'll hear back from somebody in the know after they read this post as to why, and if I do, I'll post the reasoning for it. :)

I'd love to meet you in person someday before I meet my maker. I think you're a cool cat and would be fun to be around and sweat a match or two. :)

I'm all for the positives of that tournament and I agree, people get paid and that's awesome. I just cannot understand why he keeps the money. I personally know two who signed up a long time ago and now are not able to play. That's $400 just from people I know. Honestly, I just think it's a shady move to not refund if he fills the spot and thought it's worthy of a post for those who do not know this policy.

I'd love to meet you too. Come on up!
 

buckets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not refunding the entry fee, though, that does sting a little. I'm sure I'll hear back from somebody in the know after they read this post as to why, and if I do, I'll post the reasoning for it. :)

I would assume it's to deter people from signing up if they aren't going to make a real effort to get there.

If the funds are used to promote/execute the event, then I don't see a problem with it.
 

cleary

Honestly, I'm a liar.
Silver Member
I would assume it's to deter people from signing up if they aren't going to make a real effort to get there.

If the funds are used to promote/execute the event, then I don't see a problem with it.

That wouldn't be as big of a deal if you didn't have to sign up so far in advance. Most non-pros are going to struggle to plan that far out for something they're doing for fun.

The solution is simple. Open the field up or refund if you're able to replace them.. take a small cut for your troubles if you need but $200 is shitty business in my opinion. There's always a waiting list so as far as I'm concerned, there's no good excuse for not refunding something. Shit, at least give me a credit to play in a future event!
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I went to the race track once. The horse I bet on threw the jockey off and jumped over a fence. No refund.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had no idea there was a no-refund policy. That's nuts if you ask me. I can understand if you cancelled a few days before the event (or a set date by Zuglan), maybe no refund then. I can also understand if Zuglan kept a "processing fee". And I can also understand if he refunded the money a month after the event was held. But to not give it back at all?

This is the only bad thing I've ever heard about Zuglan. Yikes.

Can anyone else corroborate this is true besides Cleary? Not that I don't believe you, its just this is almost unbelievable in any business. There are probably even state laws regarding refunds that he might be breaking. (Not a lawyer, or even armchair lawyer, ha ha)
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
I went to the race track once. The horse I bet on threw the jockey off and jumped over a fence. No refund.

If I entered the tournament, puleld a Mike Sigel and snapped my cue as my opponent lagged, I'd be out a refund too.

If I sold my spot to another horse a month before the race, what's the problem?
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
People like the idea of playing in these events. They say that they will be there, and then when the time comes, they don't show up. Requiring payment in advance is the best way to limit this.

I understand that things come up, and sometimes you can't honor your commitment, but that's on you, not the tournament director. If he offers a refund, it just makes it that much easier for someone to back out of the event. If Mike wants to use that money for hookers and cocaine, that's his prerogative. I don't even care if he wastes the rest of it.

As a side note, the event doesn't typically fill until about a month or so prior.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
People like the idea of playing in these events. They say that they will be there, and then when the time comes, they don't show up. Requiring payment in advance is the best way to limit this.

I understand that things come up, and sometimes you can't honor your commitment, but that's on you, not the tournament director. If he offers a refund, it just makes it that much easier for someone to back out of the event. If Mike wants to use that money for hookers and cocaine, that's his prerogative. I don't even care if he wastes the rest of it.

As a side note, the event doesn't typically fill until about a month or so prior.

If that is so, then why can't I sell my spot to someone else. After all, I paid for it. If I back out and find someone to take my place, no harm and no foul.
 

demartini rocks

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
if this has happened before in past turning stone events then you should by now what you are signing up for and getting into.
if this just this year then yeah it's crappy but keep this mind in knowing what you will be signing up for in future turning stone events.
I am curious though-does the guy who keeps that money indulge with hookers, food from reservation required eateries, a day at the racetrack, all of the above?
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
I don't have all the answers, and I don't want to pretend to. If I had to guess, it's because it creates an additional headache for Mike to manage...

-Player A sells his spot to Player B. Player A notifies Mike. Mike has to go through the list and make a revision, which may or may not be a simple task. Imagine if 20 players do the same, it gets to be a chore.

-Let's say that Player B claims that he bought Player A's spot (maybe he did, maybe he didn't). Both players show up to play, and there is an argument.. Mike only received payment from Player A. Another headache that Mike shouldn't have to deal with.

These are just two very simple examples, but I'm certain there could be a number of other scenarios. Bottom line is: these are the rules, and I am sure that Mike has a good reason for doing things the way that he does. We just may not be privy to the knowledge that brought him to make these decisions. There is always more to the story.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
I don't have all the answers, and I don't want to pretend to. If I had to guess, it's because it creates an additional headache for Mike to manage...

-Player A sells his spot to Player B. Player A notifies Mike. Mike has to go through the list and make a revision, which may or may not be a simple task. Imagine if 20 players do the same, it gets to be a chore.

-Let's say that Player B claims that he bought Player A's spot (maybe he did, maybe he didn't). Both players show up to play, and there is an argument.. Mike only received payment from Player A. Another headache that Mike shouldn't have to deal with.

These are just two very simple examples, but I'm certain there could be a number of other scenarios. Bottom line is: these are the rules, and I am sure that Mike has a good reason for doing things the way that he does. We just may not be privy to the knowledge that brought him to make these decisions. There is always more to the story.

ok, same argument. I tell him I can't make it, he quickly fills it himself with another player, and refunds me only when he gets another player to take his spot. He can even take a "restocking" fee for his troubles. THis is have been going on for decades and it not a difficult process. But I guess it's just easier to just pocket someone else's money.

Hotels do it all the time, and they have more rooms than players, but somehow, the guy working for min wage at the front desk can some how pull this off ??
 
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