Cue ball close to object balls

JimSabatke · Mar 29, 2015

I was playing straight pool the other day and my opponent left me hooked in a way that the cue ball was in a "nest" of 3 balls, about 1/8 inch from each of them, so that I could basically only shoot toward the opening between the back two balls and take a thin cut on one of them. My opponent questioned why I didn't execute a high angle shot on the ball at the apex of the 3 ball triangle. Being about 1/16 inch, I told him that I didn't believe I could hit the cue ball and pull it back before the cue stopped and the cue ball would either remain touching the cue tip, or retouch the cue tip, making the shot either a push or double hit, depending on the case. Because it would happen so fast, there would be no way of telling which foul would be committed, but I felt that I didn't want to foul in any case.

He became pretty agitated, angry actually, and told me to just shoot the high angle shot. Aside from the impropriety of making that statement, he rounded up a couple other players and got them to tell me I was wrong, and that all I had to do was to pull the cue back fast enough, and then there could be no foul. When I insisted that no human could pull a stick back that fast, I basically had three people having a laugh at my lack of knowledge. I know that a bit further back the shot gets more possible, but a small fraction of an inch is just not doable according to either my common sense, or knowledge of rules.

I have looked up various rules on the net, and most of them do say that within a chalk cube width, you avoid a foul by a 45 degree elevation of the butt. The ACA rules say that, and so do some local league rules I've found. I know the BCA referee's guide is pretty specific about close ball fouls, and those are the standards I've always played by. I believe the BCAPL rules allow for very thin hits, and that it is assumed that no double hit takes place, even if there is one if the hit is thin.

Aside from playing with a very obnoxious, old know-it-all, who gets very angry when I won't break the rules on my own shots (I ignore his constant double hits all the time) and that if I had anyone else near his caliber to play with I wouldn't play with him, I thought I would check here an make sure my own understanding is sound on this, especially with multiple rules by different ruling bodies out there.

I just can't believe that a high angle hit when you can barely see light between the balls is legal.

Any thoughts?

pocket · Mar 29, 2015

For what it's worth, I agree with you completely. Why get in the habit of playing by backwards rules?

Scott Lee · Mar 29, 2015

JimSabatke...You are correct. No way to avoid a double hit here. The guys telling you it's okay simply don't know the rules. The dwell time between the tip and the CB is 1/1000th of a second...impossible to "pull" the cue back out of the way, in time to avoid the foul.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

hang-the-9 · Mar 29, 2015

JimSabatke said:
I was playing straight pool the other day and my opponent left me hooked in a way that the cue ball was in a "nest" of 3 balls, about 1/8 inch from each of them, so that I could basically only shoot toward the opening between the back two balls and take a thin cut on one of them. My opponent questioned why I didn't execute a high angle shot on the ball at the apex of the 3 ball triangle. Being about 1/16 inch, I told him that I didn't believe I could hit the cue ball and pull it back before the cue stopped and the cue ball would either remain touching the cue tip, or retouch the cue tip, making the shot either a push or double hit, depending on the case. Because it would happen so fast, there would be no way of telling which foul would be committed, but I felt that I didn't want to foul in any case.

He became pretty agitated, angry actually, and told me to just shoot the high angle shot. Aside from the impropriety of making that statement, he rounded up a couple other players and got them to tell me I was wrong, and that all I had to do was to pull the cue back fast enough, and then there could be no foul. When I insisted that no human could pull a stick back that fast, I basically had three people having a laugh at my lack of knowledge. I know that a bit further back the shot gets more possible, but a small fraction of an inch is just not doable according to either my common sense, or knowledge of rules.

I have looked up various rules on the net, and most of them do say that within a chalk cube width, you avoid a foul by a 45 degree elevation of the butt. The ACA rules say that, and so do some local league rules I've found. I know the BCA referee's guide is pretty specific about close ball fouls, and those are the standards I've always played by. I believe the BCAPL rules allow for very thin hits, and that it is assumed that no double hit takes place, even if there is one if the hit is thin.

Aside from playing with a very obnoxious, old know-it-all, who gets very angry when I won't break the rules on my own shots (I ignore his constant double hits all the time) and that if I had anyone else near his caliber to play with I wouldn't play with him, I thought I would check here an make sure my own understanding is sound on this, especially with multiple rules by different ruling bodies out there.

I just can't believe that a high angle hit when you can barely see light between the balls is legal.

Any thoughts?

Those league rules, you don't really avoid a foul there automatically, what the league rules say is that if you try to avoid a foul, it's good enough for the league. Just because you elevate the butt of the cue, does not mean you don't actually foul. It's similar to a law that would state "if you are drunk and you hit someone, but you tried not to hit them, then it's OK".

In the real pool world, to not foul you actually have to not foul, not just look like you are trying not to.

Neil · Mar 29, 2015

Here's a link about close hits. Make sure you click on the links in the link.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2009/sept09.pdf

Bob Jewett · Mar 29, 2015

JimSabatke said:
... Any thoughts?

Those players in your pool hall are ignorant. Lots of pool players are -- just as in lots of other parts of life. They have learned their rules from their uncle Steve and old Joe down at the Dew Drop Inn, neither of whom has ever even seen a rule book or gone to a big tournament.

You could show your friend the real rules and/or the videos mentioned above, but he is very unlikely to change his mind and he might just decide not to play you any more.

You could try looking for someone or somewhere else to play.

dr_dave · Mar 29, 2015

Bob Jewett said:
You could show your friend the real rules and/or the videos mentioned above

For convenience, here are the videos mentioned in the article:

NV B.49 - Using your knuckles to prevent a double hit and stop the cue ball, with Bob Jewett
NV B.50 - Using your knuckles to prevent a double hit and get follow, with Bob Jewett
NV B.51 - Using your natural forward stroke limit to prevent a double hit and get draw, with Bob Jewett
NV B.52 - Using a fouette shot to prevent a double hit, with Bob Jewett

And more info and videos concerning how to detect and avoid double hits can be found here:

double-hit foul resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

JimSabatke · Mar 29, 2015

hang-the-9 said:
Those league rules, you don't really avoid a foul there automatically, what the league rules say is that if you try to avoid a foul, it's good enough for the league. Just because you elevate the butt of the cue, does not mean you don't actually foul. It's similar to a law that would state "if you are drunk and you hit someone, but you tried not to hit them, then it's OK".

In the real pool world, to not foul you actually have to not foul, not just look like you are trying not to.

In the real pool world, to not foul you actually have to not foul, not just look like you are trying not to.[/QUOTE]

I just read through most of the BCAPL rules. Man, are they insane for allowing what would be fouls in the BCA rules I try to play by. They allow pushes and double hits in situations where it's fairly easy to avoid them. One example, my normal playing partner will hit the outside of the cue ball often on "thin" hits of close balls, which by my understanding is pretty much a double hit, while hitting the inside of the ball has the effect of the cue bouncing away from the object ball, and the cue going between them untouched. The BCAPL just assumes any thin shot is legal, even if there is actually a double hit. Same thing with high angle shots. They also allow the tip, shaft or ferrule of the cue to disturb an object ball behind the cue ball on the the backstroke. Are these rules used much in the "real world," or just in BCAPL leagues? It also looks to me as if BCAPL has no relationship with BCA. Not that it matters much because the rules certainly are different between the two, but I'd like to know for when I try to explain differences. Even players I know that are fairly up on the rules are confused by the differences. The double hit and push shots that BCAPL allows really give some players fuel to think they can make just about any foul shot and get away with it, which drives me nuts. Even when I play with people that play by some bastardized set of BCAPL rules, I refuse to make foul shots myself as I believe that it's not real pool, and it's cheating if I know better. It's almost as bad as going back to playing with people who say "I play by bar rules," which of course can be just about set of "rules" imaginable.

Jim

JimSabatke · Mar 29, 2015

Neil said:
Here's a link about close hits. Make sure you click on the links in the link.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2009/sept09.pdf

Thanks! That info bears out exactly how I understand the rules. I've refereed a lot of games played under BCA rules, and most of the double hit rulings come from either experience (knowing that a certain position of the balls and the cue position and stroke WILL cause a double hit) or the behavior and path of the cue ball after the stroke. Some are by definition when within a chalk cube's distance. I get a lot of arguments because the player will claim they didn't feel or hear the second hit, to which I've always stated that you can't really hear soft leather against a ball, especially when it happens that fast. One example is hitting a cue ball into a rail from a fraction of an inch away, where physics and geometry make it impossible to not foul.

The high speed photography is excellent and proves my understanding!

Jim

hang-the-9 · Mar 29, 2015

JimSabatke said:
I just read through most of the BCAPL rules. Man, are they insane for allowing what would be fouls in the BCA rules I try to play by. They allow pushes and double hits in situations where it's fairly easy to avoid them. One example, my normal playing partner will hit the outside of the cue ball often on "thin" hits of close balls, which by my understanding is pretty much a double hit, while hitting the inside of the ball has the effect of the cue bouncing away from the object ball, and the cue going between them untouched. The BCAPL just assumes any thin shot is legal, even if there is actually a double hit. Same thing with high angle shots. They also allow the tip, shaft or ferrule of the cue to disturb an object ball behind the cue ball on the the backstroke. Are these rules used much in the "real world," or just in BCAPL leagues? It also looks to me as if BCAPL has no relationship with BCA. Not that it matters much because the rules certainly are different between the two, but I'd like to know for when I try to explain differences. Even players I know that are fairly up on the rules are confused by the differences. The double hit and push shots that BCAPL allows really give some players fuel to think they can make just about any foul shot and get away with it, which drives me nuts. Even when I play with people that play by some bastardized set of BCAPL rules, I refuse to make foul shots myself as I believe that it's not real pool, and it's cheating if I know better. It's almost as bad as going back to playing with people who say "I play by bar rules," which of course can be just about set of "rules" imaginable.

Jim

BCAPL is not owned by the BCA, it's part of CSI. The BCAPL rules, at least in my area, are actually tougher than the WPA or BCA rules since it's called shot on the 9 and no 9 on the break in 9 ball, and 10 ball is all called shot.

The push and double hit rules are the same. Most tournaments even pro ones are cue ball foul only, which is why you can hit an object ball accidentally during the shot. That is normal rules in most places, especially the tournaments that do not have a ref on every table watching.

Not sure what you mean by hitting the outside or inside of the ball to avoid a double hit, depending on the situation, you can do either one. If you mean that if you hit the outside of the cueball at an angle and the cueball with rebound off the object ball into the tip again, that would be a foul, and you can see it because the cueball will all of a sudden change direction.

JimSabatke · Mar 29, 2015

dr_dave said:
For convenience, here are the videos mentioned in the article:

NV B.49 - Using your knuckles to prevent a double hit and stop the cue ball, with Bob Jewett
NV B.50 - Using your knuckles to prevent a double hit and get follow, with Bob Jewett
NV B.51 - Using your natural forward stroke limit to prevent a double hit and get draw, with Bob Jewett
NV B.52 - Using a fouette shot to prevent a double hit, with Bob Jewett

And more info and videos concerning how to detect and avoid double hits can be found here:

double-hit foul resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

Good stuff. I've used the hand against the table stop to avoid double hits for a long time, and it's certainly worth repeating, especially since it is an exception to the chalk width assumed foul.

Jim

hang-the-9 · Mar 29, 2015

JimSabatke said:
Good stuff. I've used the hand against the table stop to avoid double hits for a long time, and it's certainly worth repeating, especially since it is an exception to the chalk width assumed foul.

Jim

There should be no "assumed fouls" on any shot till it's shot and you see what happens. Some shots you pretty much know the guy will 100% foul, because of how he is going to hit it, or because of his skill, but you can't say a shot is a foul just because of the situation before the shot is done. It may not be a foul after all. The guy could have avoided a foul, you can't just call a foul anyway because it was assumed to have happened because of the distance.

CJ Wiley · Mar 29, 2015

That's the beauty of this game, we can always learn something new

JimSabatke said:
I was playing straight pool the other day and my opponent left me hooked in a way that the cue ball was in a "nest" of 3 balls, about 1/8 inch from each of them, so that I could basically only shoot toward the opening between the back two balls and take a thin cut on one of them. My opponent questioned why I didn't execute a high angle shot on the ball at the apex of the 3 ball triangle. Being about 1/16 inch, I told him that I didn't believe I could hit the cue ball and pull it back before the cue stopped and the cue ball would either remain touching the cue tip, or retouch the cue tip, making the shot either a push or double hit, depending on the case. Because it would happen so fast, there would be no way of telling which foul would be committed, but I felt that I didn't want to foul in any case.

He became pretty agitated, angry actually, and told me to just shoot the high angle shot. Aside from the impropriety of making that statement, he rounded up a couple other players and got them to tell me I was wrong, and that all I had to do was to pull the cue back fast enough, and then there could be no foul. When I insisted that no human could pull a stick back that fast, I basically had three people having a laugh at my lack of knowledge. I know that a bit further back the shot gets more possible, but a small fraction of an inch is just not doable according to either my common sense, or knowledge of rules.

I have looked up various rules on the net, and most of them do say that within a chalk cube width, you avoid a foul by a 45 degree elevation of the butt. The ACA rules say that, and so do some local league rules I've found. I know the BCA referee's guide is pretty specific about close ball fouls, and those are the standards I've always played by. I believe the BCAPL rules allow for very thin hits, and that it is assumed that no double hit takes place, even if there is one if the hit is thin.

Aside from playing with a very obnoxious, old know-it-all, who gets very angry when I won't break the rules on my own shots (I ignore his constant double hits all the time) and that if I had anyone else near his caliber to play with I wouldn't play with him, I thought I would check here an make sure my own understanding is sound on this, especially with multiple rules by different ruling bodies out there.

I just can't believe that a high angle hit when you can barely see light between the balls is legal.

Any thoughts?

You can make a legal hit, even when the balls are very close together. There is a "trick" though, and that's to make your bridge length the same as the distance between the balls. When you know how to do this, it is very difficult to make a "bad hit".

Not many players know this, I shared it with a group out of New York last time I was in Vegas and none of them had ever seen how to make this type of bridge......and this group had a LOT of experience.

That's the beauty of this game, we can always learn something new, if we are willing to put old ideas, beliefs and attitudes on the shelf for a moment.

Of course the rules are made for those that don't know this technique, it's understandable.

'The Game is the Teacher'

JimSabatke · Mar 29, 2015

Bob Jewett said:
Those players in your pool hall are ignorant. Lots of pool players are -- just as in lots of other parts of life. They have learned their rules from their uncle Steve and old Joe down at the Dew Drop Inn, neither of whom has ever even seen a rule book or gone to a big tournament.

You could show your friend the real rules and/or the videos mentioned above, but he is very unlikely to change his mind and he might just decide not to play you any more.

You could try looking for someone or somewhere else to play.

He just might decide to not play me, though he gets so angry when someone corrects him that he starts yelling, really loud. Loud enough to catch the attention of everyone in a large pool room and adjoining bar. The staff, some of whom play him from time to time say "he's a very angry old man" and "he also cheats a lot." I'm not as bothered by his double hits and pushes as I am about his non-stop, vocal analysis of my game: "you missed that because you over-cut it, because your elbow moved in a bit", "you picked the wrong ball to shoot at when you had an easier one" (when it was all about setup for the next shot. He just never shuts up, and he never stops trying to fix my stroke, stance and aiming system. That's a lot more annoying than the rules stuff.

I just turned 60, so I am qualified to say that the longer one lives, the more one should realize that many people are not swayed by science, facts or well-written rules.

It would be easier if there was just one comprehensive set of rules, which I consider BCA to be. So many barroom rules come into play that it's totally maddening. I can't believe how people will agree to BCA rules 8 ball, then insist that if you pocket a ball on the break that you don't have an open table; or if you scratch while missing pocketing the 8 ball is an automatic loss.

I guess the trick is to find opponents who aren't idiots, which can be hard at times.

Jim

JimSabatke · Mar 29, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
You can make a legal hit, even when the balls are very close together. There is a "trick" though, and that's to make your bridge length the same as the distance between the balls. When you know how to do this, it is very difficult to make a "bad hit".

Not many players know this, I shared it with a group out of New York last time I was in Vegas and none of them had ever seen how to make this type of bridge......and this group had a LOT of experience.

That's the beauty of this game, we can always learn something new, if we are willing to put old ideas, beliefs and attitudes on the shelf for a moment.

Of course the rules are made for those that don't know this technique, it's understandable.

'The Game is the Teacher'

I'm going to try that! I don't have a clear picture of it in my head, but I'll look on line to try to figure out what it's all about. You are very right when you say there are technique exceptions to just about everything, and I'm always looking to learn new ways to have fun with the game.

Neil · Mar 29, 2015

JimSabatke said:
He just might decide to not play me, though he gets so angry when someone corrects him that he starts yelling, really loud. Loud enough to catch the attention of everyone in a large pool room and adjoining bar. The staff, some of whom play him from time to time say "he's a very angry old man" and "he also cheats a lot." I'm not as bothered by his double hits and pushes as I am about his non-stop, vocal analysis of my game: "you missed that because you over-cut it, because your elbow moved in a bit", "you picked the wrong ball to shoot at when you had an easier one" (when it was all about setup for the next shot. He just never shuts up, and he never stops trying to fix my stroke, stance and aiming system. That's a lot more annoying than the rules stuff.

I just turned 60, so I am qualified to say that the longer one lives, the more one should realize that many people are not swayed by science, facts or well-written rules.

It would be easier if there was just one comprehensive set of rules, which I consider BCA to be. So many barroom rules come into play that it's totally maddening. I can't believe how people will agree to BCA rules 8 ball, then insist that if you pocket a ball on the break that you don't have an open table; or if you scratch while missing pocketing the 8 ball is an automatic loss.

I guess the trick is to find opponents who aren't idiots, which can be hard at times.

Jim

I've said for years that one of the things holding pool back from being accepted is the lack of uniform rules. Pool is the only game/sport that I can think of that has different rules everywhere you go and every league you play in. It's just ridiculous. Why should anyone outside pool take it seriously when we can't even take it serious enough to have a standard set of rules?

Patrick Johnson · Mar 29, 2015

JimSabatke:
...the cue ball was in a "nest" of 3 balls, about 1/8 inch from each of them

Click to expand...

CJ Wiley:
You can make a legal hit, even when the balls are very close together. There is a "trick" though, and that's to make your bridge length the same as the distance between the balls. When you know how to do this, it is very difficult to make a "bad hit".

Click to expand...

JimSabatke:
I'm going to try that!

Good luck figuring out how to make a 1/8" bridge.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH! · Mar 29, 2015

Neil said:
I've said for years that one of the things holding pool back from being accepted is the lack of uniform rules. Pool is the only game/sport that I can think of that has different rules everywhere you go and every league you play in. It's just ridiculous. Why should anyone outside pool take it seriously when we can't even take it serious enough to have a standard set of rules?

I agree with you.

JimSabatke · Mar 29, 2015

hang-the-9 said:
BCAPL is not owned by the BCA, it's part of CSI. The BCAPL rules, at least in my area, are actually tougher than the WPA or BCA rules since it's called shot on the 9 and no 9 on the break in 9 ball, and 10 ball is all called shot.

The push and double hit rules are the same. Most tournaments even pro ones are cue ball foul only, which is why you can hit an object ball accidentally during the shot. That is normal rules in most places, especially the tournaments that do not have a ref on every table watching.

Not sure what you mean by hitting the outside or inside of the ball to avoid a double hit, depending on the situation, you can do either one. If you mean that if you hit the outside of the cueball at an angle and the cueball with rebound off the object ball into the tip again, that would be a foul, and you can see it because the cueball will all of a sudden change direction.

Actually, with a very thin cut, a hit on the outside of the cue ball can double hit without a sudden change of direction. It is usually a very subtle foul. Again, the foul can usually be avoided by hitting the inside of the cue ball, and the cue will pass between both balls. Generally, a referee should have enough experience to know a given shot will, or will likely result in a foul before it is struck. There is at least one specific rule where if the cue and object balls are within the one chalk cube width, and the cue ball is struck square into the object ball, if the cue ball travels more than one half its diameter past the object ball position, it is considered a foul, with no other indications required. Of course there is at least one exception, where the knuckles stop the cue's forward motion by striking the side of the table. Personally, even though I have a lot of experience detecting subtle double hits, I am pretty generous in casual games that don't count for anything.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

croscoe · Mar 29, 2015

Scott Lee said:
JimSabatke...You are correct. No way to avoid a double hit here. The guys telling you it's okay simply don't know the rules. The dwell time between the tip and the CB is 1/1000th of a second...impossible to "pull" the cue back out of the way, in time to avoid the foul.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I executed the shot you showed me just yesterday. Fella there with us (said to be a certified ref/ump in Vegas a while back) said less than a chalk with was foul unless jacked or angled....Well used the chest to stop the cue, soft stop shot half the chalk width. No balls in the way just the 2 and room to cue flat. All agreed good hit ....he still paused and daaa still bad by the rules????

Cue ball close to object balls

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