Best Safety with full rack

slach · May 15, 2012

Your opponent calls a safety on a break shot, intentionally pockets the break ball and leaves the cue ball just off the cushion near the middle of the head rail. Now, you're looking at a full rack and the cue ball a long way off. What's your best safety from here?

1) Cross your fingers and roll softly into the head ball of the rack
2) Cross your fingers and thin the edge of the rack
3) Cross your fingers and bank into the back of the rack
4) Accuse him of being a gutless cheat and storm off

Steve

The Kiss · May 15, 2012

Instead of crossing your fingers work on all 3 safes you proposed. With a little skill and practice the safe sticking the cue on the head ball works well. Or slightly feathering the end ball works and come back up table. The riskiest move is going 1 rail into the middle ball on the back row.

Down side of the first and the 3rd safe is hitting it too hard not sticking the cue ball and leaving easy shots. The second safe might lead to a rack shot.

I'd say sticking the cue ball to the head ball is the best solution just don't hit it too hard easy safe to practice as well

alstl · May 15, 2012

I don't know the answer but I've heard people say Irving Crane would go two rails off the side of the stack and send the cue ball back up table, and he would do it on two fouls.

Myself, I'm not sure I could execute that shot.

stevekur1 · May 15, 2012

Honestly in this position I would backscratch my way to 3 fouls and get my opponent on 2 fouls. I like my odds better with an opening breakshot better then possibly selling out on a safety from from there.

Steve

pt109 · May 15, 2012

alstl said:
I don't know the answer but I've heard people say Irving Crane would go two rails off the side of the stack and send the cue ball back up table, and he would do it on two fouls.

Myself, I'm not sure I could execute that shot.

This is the one I know, Al...remember, you got 3 chances at the thin
hit off two rails...just make sure you don't hit thick.
What I like about this two rail kick...you can put your opponent in a lot
of trouble.
Sticking on the head ball is more of a stalemate safety.

Bob Jewett · May 15, 2012

I don't know if rolling onto the head ball is a playable safety but I do know that I never saw a top player shoot the shot that way. The absolutely standard way in the old days was to shoot two cushions to the middle of the back of the rack and softly enough to move balls out of the front a little but generally not hard enough to get a ball to a cushion.

sjm · May 16, 2012

Bob Jewett said:
I don't know if rolling onto the head ball is a playable safety but I do know that I never saw a top player shoot the shot that way. The absolutely standard way in the old days was to shoot two cushions to the middle of the back of the rack and softly enough to move balls out of the front a little but generally not hard enough to get a ball to a cushion.

Right on! If you play any safety here, you're playing a sucker shot. The two rail backscratch into the back of the pack hit just hard enough to loosen something in the front of the pack is the only shot that is imaginable here at a high level of play.

I've also never seen anyone design to take three fouls in this position in world championship play.

stevekur1 · May 16, 2012

stevekur1 said:
Honestly in this position I would backscratch my way to 3 fouls and get my opponent on 2 fouls. I like my odds better with an opening breakshot better then possibly selling out on a safety from from there.

Steve

sjm said:
I've also never seen anyone design to take three fouls in this position in world championship play.

I Guess i was wrong here, it sounded to me like it wouild be the right move here.

-Steve

3andstop · May 16, 2012

You absolutely ROLL the ball 2 cushions into the back of the rack. NOT even caring about driving a ball to the cushion. Rather, being sure the cue rolls up to the rack with just enough force to ever so slightly open a few balls.

Take one foul which means nothing, and now you are out of the trap. He cannot send you 2 rails back up table because of the loose balls. If a ball should hit a cushion, great, but don't sell out by hitting too hard to accomplish it. Play for the foul.

wigglybridge · May 16, 2012

"I don't know the answer but I've heard people say Irving Crane would go two rails off the side of the stack and send the cue ball back up table, and he would do it on two fouls."

i've only seen about 5 hours of Crane's play, and i've already seen him whiff that shot. admittedly, most of those hours outside of the 150&out against Balsis were from the 1986 set that Dennis has put up, when he was 73, and his 73 didn't look like Ray Martin's 73.

pt109 · May 16, 2012

wigglybridge said:
"I don't know the answer but I've heard people say Irving Crane would go two rails off the side of the stack and send the cue ball back up table, and he would do it on two fouls."

i've only seen about 5 hours of Crane's play, and i've already seen him whiff that shot. admittedly, most of those hours outside of the 150&out against Balsis were from the 1986 set that Dennis has put up, when he was 73, and his 73 didn't look like Ray Martin's 73.

The thinking on the two-rail kick is that you can afford to miss altogether...
...but never hit them thick...if you 3-foul, it's not the end of the world.

Small world, the man who taught me to two-rail kick in this spot....is the
man who had the first 150 in a championship...had it on Irving Crane.

PGHteacher · May 16, 2012

First I think he is betting that you are not going to think of taking the foul setting the CB behind the rack. If you think of it this way his play has cost HIM a ball already he (probably) could have called the ball and easily stuck the CB on the foot spot; a much better safety IMHO. So he’s betting that you are not very creative. That’s a healthy way to look at it.

There is another answer and it’s a toughie; thin the whole side of the rack without popping a ball out and try to put the CB 2 rails in the center of the table, it is even harder than it sounds.

sjm · May 16, 2012

wigglybridge said:
"I don't know the answer but I've heard people say Irving Crane would go two rails off the side of the stack and send the cue ball back up table, and he would do it on two fouls."

Yes, Irving played that shot. I watched dozens of his matches live and knew him well, but ...

With his opponent not on two fouls, he might have played it now and then, but this safety tended not to win the safety battle, only start it. The reason is that this safety usually fails to loosen anything underneath, leaving an easy backscratch response. Of course, the backscratch response would be unavailable if opponent were on two, so that's when this safety gave his opponents headaches. Irving similarly liked to play this safety when he himself was on two (or had at least as many fouls as his opponent), willing to risk the fifteen ball penalty to make sure he didn't sell out the rack.

pt109 · May 16, 2012

sjm said:
Yes, Irving played that shot. I watched dozens of his matches live and knew him well, but ...

This safety rarely loosens anything underneath, leaving a backscratch response most of the time. Hence, with his opponent not on two fouls, he might have played it now and then, but this safety tended not to win the safety battle, only start it. The reason is that this safety usually fails to loosen anything underneath, leaving an easy backscratch response. Of course, the backscratch response would be unavailable if opponent were on two, so that's when this safety gave his opponents headaches. Irving similarly liked to play this safety when he himself was on two, willing to risk the fifteen ball penalty to make sure he didn't sell out the rack.

makes a lot of sense...thanx.

The Kiss · May 16, 2012

Bob Jewett said:
I don't know if rolling onto the head ball is a playable safety but I do know that I never saw a top player shoot the shot that way. The absolutely standard way in the old days was to shoot two cushions to the middle of the back of the rack and softly enough to move balls out of the front a little but generally not hard enough to get a ball to a cushion.

I'm no pro but I would bet I can pull off the head ball good safe a solid 7 out of 10 times. Granted it might not be the choice safe of a pro but if you are having a safety battle with a lessor player it pays to know all your options.

Most games played by lower level players are won IMO making the other guy screw up and leave shots. If the guy is a world beater your likely done anyway. But against lessor players a 10 - 4 rack and a safe can add up to a win quickly might not be pretty as 100 ball run but it gets the job done.

Plus lets face it a 10 ball run and a safe does'nt scare away players like a 100 and out will

Dan White · May 16, 2012

If you want to see a back scratch from a guy who could shoot pretty sporty look at about 8 minutes into this video (just posted on another thread):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06-M12lQWE&feature=related

pt109 · May 17, 2012

I talked about this thread with a friend I've played a lot of 14.1 with.
I now see the value of the back scratch.
Thanx everyone.

sfleinen · May 17, 2012

pt109 said:
I talked about this thread with a friend I've played a lot of 14.1 with.
I now see the value of the back scratch.
Thanx everyone.

That's true friendship -- one back scratching the other.

PGHteacher · May 17, 2012

The Kiss said:
I'm no pro but I would bet I can pull off the head ball good safe a solid 7 out of 10 times.

A “good safe” is not just not leaving your opponent a shot; it involves limiting the options of your opponent, if you play a safe and he doesn’t have a shot but has a better answer to your safe with another safe (a counter-safe if you will) you have not played a “good safe” leaving the CB in top of the rack no matter if you foul of not leaves your opponent too much of the table to work with.

The proposed safe with a foul is easy to execute and limits the scope of his options all at the cost of only 1 ball and as I said this safe has already cost him a ball in that he doesn’t have the ball he would have had had he shot the ball called it and then called the safe on his next shot.

The Kiss said:
Granted it might not be the choice safe of a pro but if you are having a safety battle with a lessor player it pays to know all your options.

There is no difference in who you are playing unless you are the one faced with the decision to leave the 15th ball up or call it “good plays” are good plays because pool is a game of odds as much as it is skill and knowing those odds.

The Kiss said:
Most games played by lower level players are won IMO making the other guy screw up and leave shots. If the guy is a world beater your likely done anyway. But against lessor players a 10 - 4 rack and a safe can add up to a win quickly might not be pretty as 100 ball run but it gets the job done.

Yes this is exactly the point and calling the safe is a bet that the guy who is left with the full rack doesn’t know what to do and will take a lower % easy to answer attempt at NOT fouling.

The Kiss · May 17, 2012

I agree with you in theory about what makes a safe good or not from all angles. But if you play the top ball safe the two corner balls go to the rails most times. Then your opponent is locked to the top ball having a ball near either corner significantly cuts down his options. A very offensive safe

The question was what to do in that situation. My answer was to practice all 3 possible safes/shots then when it comes up you know how to use it.

Sometimes the best safe is just rolling a ball to the rail and roll the cue ball on top of the object ball. Amazing how few times people think of that shot.

I used to use that safe in/on the 9 ball confuse the shit out of people how to play it.

Best Safety with full rack

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