Finding dead balls in the pack

arsenius

arsenius

Nothing ever registers...
Silver Member
I was playing the ghost at 14.1 (I give myself BIH on a breakshot and see how many innings it takes to get to 100) the other day. Normally I can't see dead balls very often, but this time I was really spotting them. Maybe 3 times during my practice I was able to correctly spot and make dead balls from the pack. I was really pleased. Normally I don't see any while playing, other times I might see one and miss it.

So, I was just wondering if anyone had any advice on finding dead balls in the stack. Normally I just try to look and see if there is anything tempting. Since in the past I haven't found much, I assume that I was probably looking wrong. Is there anything besides experience that can help you pick out dead combinations in the pack? Or do you need to just shoot and make/miss a bunch of them?
 
Blackjack

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
arsenius said:
I was playing the ghost at 14.1 (I give myself BIH on a break shot and see how many innings it takes to get to 100) the other day. Normally I can't see dead balls very often, but this time I was really spotting them. Maybe 3 times during my practice I was able to correctly spot and make dead balls from the pack. I was really pleased. Normally I don't see any while playing, other times I might see one and miss it.

So, I was just wondering if anyone had any advice on finding dead balls in the stack. Normally I just try to look and see if there is anything tempting. Since in the past I haven't found much, I assume that I was probably looking wrong. Is there anything besides experience that can help you pick out dead combinations in the pack? Or do you need to just shoot and make/miss a bunch of them?
Click to expand...


It's a great idea to study the rack and the clusters after each and every shot from each and every angle.

Below we have a very interesting rack with several dead balls that may or may not be able to be made.


CueTable Help



First, let's look at what we may or may not have...

The 10 Ball

The 10 sort of just jumps out at you because it is extended out from the rack further than the other balls. The first things I look at are:
What ball do I need to contact to make this ball?
Is there a ball available for that hit?
If I do hit it, will the chain reaction throw the ball away from the center of the pocket opening?

CueTable Help



We look at different points of contact to make the 10 -

From Point A (on top of the stack)
we try to use the 14... this may not work because there may be gaps between the balls that will throw this shot off course.

From Point B (below the stack)
In this shot the tangent line of the 9 and the 6 is pushing the 10 ball to the end rail, not towards the pocket.

From Point C (Using the 8)
I don't like this because the cue ball does not fit into that gap to get a clean hit on the 8 - plus... from here why not just call the 5 in the corner?

The 14 ball

For this shot, you must get behind the stack and contact the 7 ball cleanly. It?s not very likely that I will get perfect on this shot, and if I make it, I really don?t have much to shoot at next. Because I need to hit the 7 so cleanly, I run the risk of having the cue ball stuck in the middle of nowhere. I don?t like this option.

CueTable Help



This doesn't work either?

CueTable Help



Look at how the 10-6-12-8 line goes.the balls are not lined up straight, and when you make contact, the 14 will be throw towards that rail, not towards the pocket.

In this shot, we can make the 5 ball, as long as we contact the 2 ball. There is a small gap between the 11 and the 5 that makes this a very simple shot to execute.

CueTable Help



In 99 Critical Shots by Ray Martin and Rosser Reeves, there is an entire section towards the back of the book that is dedicated to identifying dead balls in the stack.
 
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R

rikdee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dead ball play involves both recognition and prediction. The knowledge of how balls throw, mesh, and carom when they are frozen or slightly parted is part of this process. Once understood, predicting the amount or degree of movement relative to the pocket opening is the real key. Speed of impact and cue ball spin also can affect the amount of movement.
Once spotted these shots should be carefully considered before just pulling the trigger. Often, it makes sense to clear all loose balls before playing the dead shot as they frequently result in some degree of secondary break. Or, sometimes they can offer a safe way back if going up table to play an escaped ball. In other words, you have a shot you know can be made from a distance. Thus, it important to ensure that maximum advantage is being gained before harvesting your gift.
There are many other aspects of dead ball play but for today, enough said.

_Rick
 
S

Snap9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am visualizing 5 makeable balls. They are the 5,9,10,13 and 14. All are makeable with the correct speed, throws and cue ball position. Ofcourse 3 of the 5 possibles blow the pack completely apart. Choosing wisely as which shot to shoot or none at all depends totally on your oppenents ability to make you pay if you miss. Just my opinion ofcourse.
 
SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Blackjack said:
It's a great idea to study the rack and the clusters after each and every shot from each and every angle.

Below we have a very interesting rack with several dead balls that may or may not be able to be made.


CueTable Help



First, let's look at what we may or may not have...

The 10 Ball

The 10 sort of just jumps out at you because it is extended out from the rack further than the other balls. The first things I look at are:
What ball do I need to contact to make this ball?
Is there a ball available for that hit?
If I do hit it, will the chain reaction throw the ball away from the center of the pocket opening?

CueTable Help



We look at different points of contact to make the 10 -

From Point A (on top of the stack)
we try to use the 14... this may not work because there may be gaps between the balls that will throw this shot off course.

From Point B (below the stack)
In this shot the tangent line of the 9 and the 6 is pushing the 10 ball to the end rail, not towards the pocket.

From Point C (Using the 8)
I don't like this because the cue ball does not fit into that gap to get a clean hit on the 8 - plus... from here why not just call the 5 in the corner?

The 14 ball

For this shot, you must get behind the stack and contact the 7 ball cleanly. It?s not very likely that I will get perfect on this shot, and if I make it, I really don?t have much to shoot at next. Because I need to hit the 7 so cleanly, I run the risk of having the cue ball stuck in the middle of nowhere. I don?t like this option.

CueTable Help



This doesn't work either?

CueTable Help



Look at how the 10-6-12-8 line goes.the balls are not lined up straight, and when you make contact, the 14 will be throw towards that rail, not towards the pocket.

In this shot, we can make the 5 ball, as long as we contact the 2 ball. There is a small gap between the 11 and the 5 that makes this a very simple shot to execute.

CueTable Help



In 99 Critical Shots by Ray Martin and Rosser Reeves, there is an entire section towards the back of the book that is dedicated to identifying dead balls in the stack.
Click to expand...

It's posts like this that make me come to this site everyday. Thanks for the lesson.
 
D Player

D Player

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Blackjack,

I too appreciate the information you're passing along here. Thanks for taking the time to illustrate these dead ball shots.

If you don't mind, I have a couple follow up questions...

Is there a practical limit to the number of balls you have to study when looking at frozen combinations? In other words, if you have three balls which are frozen together, does adding a fourth or fifth ball to the frozen combination make the ball you are trying to pocket behave differently? Also, when you have 3+ frozen balls how much does cue ball action affect the ball you are trying to pocket?

Thanks,
Jeff
 
arsenius

arsenius

Nothing ever registers...
Silver Member
Wow, Blackjack! Thanks for that! That was much more than I had hoped for.:)
 
Blackjack

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
D Player said:
Blackjack,

I too appreciate the information you're passing along here. Thanks for taking the time to illustrate these dead ball shots.

If you don't mind, I have a couple follow up questions...

Is there a practical limit to the number of balls you have to study when looking at frozen combinations? In other words, if you have three balls which are frozen together, does adding a fourth or fifth ball to the frozen combination make the ball you are trying to pocket behave differently? Also, when you have 3+ frozen balls how much does cue ball action affect the ball you are trying to pocket?

Thanks,
Jeff
Click to expand...

The answer to your frist question will vary with the lay of the balls. For me, I reinspect the pack after every shot. I look at the stack from all angles and what I am looking for is two things -

1 - A dead ball
2 - a good place to contact the stack with a secondary break shot

Look at the diagram below...

CueTable Help



A lot of players would be tempted to bang away at the 3 ball in an attempt to pocket the 5 off of the 11. After careful inspection of the pack, we can see that this won't accomplish that. Look at the tangent line of the 3 and the 8. The 3's movement is restricted by the 12 and the 15. This will cause the balls to move as diagrammed below... notice that the 8 ball will contact the 14 - and that the 12 will move the 7 towards the 11 - 5.

CueTable Help



Because this will probably not work, we should abandon that idea and look for something else in the pack that is a makeable dead ball, and that offers us a great opportunity to open the pack, or we can abandon it altogether. This is what I would do in this situation....

CueTable Help



The one is an open shot, and afterwards, we will have something like this to deal with...

CueTable Help



It is very important to realize when and when not to try and blast a ball out of the stack. From here, I have a couple of break ball options, and nothing is touching anything. That is basically all you need to do.
 
Blackjack

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
D Player said:
Blackjack,

Is there a practical limit to the number of balls you have to study when looking at frozen combinations? In other words, if you have three balls which are frozen together, does adding a fourth or fifth ball to the frozen combination make the ball you are trying to pocket behave differently? Also, when you have 3+ frozen balls how much does cue ball action affect the ball you are trying to pocket?

Thanks,
Jeff
Click to expand...

I'm not a player that knows anything about physics, sorry... but I do know these rules...

CueTable Help



When looking at the combination in the shot above, it is important to look at the middle ball - the 8 ball and the angle that it is sending the 7 ball. The 15, 7 and 8 balls are all frozen - which actually assists you in keeping this shot rather simple.


In the below diagram, the balls are not frozen, but this shot can stil be manipulated by ensuring that we concentrate on that middle ball - in this case the 8 ball - and contact the object ball exactly where we need to.

CueTable Help



In this next shot, we have five balls, some frozen and some not... here we concentrate on the three middle balls (5,4,9). We can see that the 4 and 5 are frozen and moving in a direction towards the 6-9 which is dead on. Tis makes the 4 ball as important as the cue ball, because it needs to contact the 9 ball - so it is imperative to ensure that when we send the 11 into the 5, that teh 4 ball goes exactly where it should.

CueTable Help



As far as the physics involved with your questions, I would refer you to Bob Jewett or Pat Johnson, as they could better explain the science that is involved with that.
 
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CreeDo

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
I think finding the dead ones is easy, it's identifying the red herrings that's tricky. There are a lot of shots that come up that look dead, then you smash the rack and it's a disaster.

Blackjack's post covers everything pretty well (and I'll second the thought on Ray Martin's book, I love that book).

Some advice on how to avoid embarrassment:

1 - once you have a dead one identified, ask yourself if hitting the balls that combo into it will throw it into or out of the pocket. A shot that goes might get knocked off line by throw if you hit the lead ball from one angle, but not from a different angle. Which lead ball you hit also matters if there's more than one possibility. Generally, if it looks really on, hitting hard will reduce the throw effect and ensure the ball goes along the line you're seeing, and hitting soft will ensure maximum throw if that's what you need to make it.

2 - if there's a half inch of air between any parts of a 'dead' combo, I would be wary of shooting. I don't consider combos with lots of 'air' to be dead at all, no matter how nice they look. Especially if there's an inch or more of air, and especially if the ball to be sunk is the one with a gap around it.

3 - 'dead' caroms are especially tricky, the OB must hit the carom ball at an exact angle, and the speed of the shot matters a lot. A naturally rolling ball might carom into the pocket while a fast sliding ball hits the OB a bit fatter and overcuts. It's pretty risky.

Less risky is when there's a situation where two balls have a ball-sized hole between them, and if you send something into that hole... it will carom into one of them and send it towards the pocket. I can't diagram it at the moment but John Schmidt's 100 ball dvd has the shot at around ball 60 I think. Basically it's a safer than usual carom because the amount of air between the ball you're using to carom and the ball you're sinking is nearly 0. It's far easier than going directly from the ball you're caroming into straight to the pocket.

4 - watch for other balls that will come into play and maybe kiss your dead combo out before it can reach the pocket. For example look at blackjack's first diagram. Both the 7 and the 4 seem to be lined up on that corner. Imagine the 13-12-4 were really dead and the 7's off a bit. If you hit the bottom half of the 13, then you'd run into that 15-8-7 combo and it might kiss the 4 out. So you'd want to be aware of that and maybe hit the 13 from an angle that prevents it.

Lastly, don't forget dead ones in the sides. They come up every so often and are easily overlooked compared to corner ones. Also be aware that during a safety (even an intentional foul safe) you can intentionally nudge a ball into a dead position in the hopes that the opponent doesn't see it or can't hit it.
 
D Player

D Player

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks again, Blackjack!

I'm not too much of a physics person myself. I just have very little experience reading the stack to see where dead balls may lie, so I was hoping to apply some of what I do understand (i.e. 2 and 3 ball frozen combinations) to straight pool to help locate which balls are dead.

It seems to the novice straight pooler (me) that finding dead balls becomes more complicated when studying stacks containing more balls. I guess I was just wondering if all balls need to be considered when looking at the stack, or just the two or three balls that neighbor the ball you wish to pocket.

Your posts have been very informative.

Thanks,
Jeff
 
D Player

D Player

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CreeDo said:
I think finding the dead ones is easy, it's identifying the red herrings that's tricky. There are a lot of shots that come up that look dead, then you smash the rack and it's a disaster.

Blackjack's post covers everything pretty well (and I'll second the thought on Ray Martin's book, I love that book).

Some advice on how to avoid embarrassment:

1 - once you have a dead one identified, ask yourself if hitting the balls that combo into it will throw it into or out of the pocket. A shot that goes might get knocked off line by throw if you hit the lead ball from one angle, but not from a different angle. Which lead ball you hit also matters if there's more than one possibility. Generally, if it looks really on, hitting hard will reduce the throw effect and ensure the ball goes along the line you're seeing, and hitting soft will ensure maximum throw if that's what you need to make it.

2 - if there's a half inch of air between any parts of a 'dead' combo, I would be wary of shooting. I don't consider combos with lots of 'air' to be dead at all, no matter how nice they look. Especially if there's an inch or more of air, and especially if the ball to be sunk is the one with a gap around it.

3 - 'dead' caroms are especially tricky, the OB must hit the carom ball at an exact angle, and the speed of the shot matters a lot. A naturally rolling ball might carom into the pocket while a fast sliding ball hits the OB a bit fatter and overcuts. It's pretty risky.

Less risky is when there's a situation where two balls have a ball-sized hole between them, and if you send something into that hole... it will carom into one of them and send it towards the pocket. I can't diagram it at the moment but John Schmidt's 100 ball dvd has the shot at around ball 60 I think. Basically it's a safer than usual carom because the amount of air between the ball you're using to carom and the ball you're sinking is nearly 0. It's far easier than going directly from the ball you're caroming into straight to the pocket.

4 - watch for other balls that will come into play and maybe kiss your dead combo out before it can reach the pocket. For example look at blackjack's first diagram. Both the 7 and the 4 seem to be lined up on that corner. Imagine the 13-12-4 were really dead and the 7's off a bit. If you hit the bottom half of the 13, then you'd run into that 15-8-7 combo and it might kiss the 4 out. So you'd want to be aware of that and maybe hit the 13 from an angle that prevents it.

Lastly, don't forget dead ones in the sides. They come up every so often and are easily overlooked compared to corner ones. Also be aware that during a safety (even an intentional foul safe) you can intentionally nudge a ball into a dead position in the hopes that the opponent doesn't see it or can't hit it.
Click to expand...

CreeDo -- very good information here too. I will pay extra attention to the stack tonight during my league match to see I can apply some of what I've learned.

Jeff
 
R

rikdee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
[Originally Posted by CreeDo
I think finding the dead ones is easy, it's identifying the red herrings that's tricky. There are a lot of shots that come up that look dead, then you smash the rack and it's a disaster.


As I mentioned in my post above, the real skill in these shots is the ability to predict exactly what will happen when the situation is somewhat questionable such as space between the balls, judging whether a ball will nick the edge of an intervening ball, and many other "not so sure" aspects.
Understanding the basic physics (interaction of the balls) when they are aligned toward the pocket or even another (carom) ball is but one part of the skill-set. Prediction based on judgement is the key to being a successful dead ball player. From there, the tactics of how best to utilize the opportunities as they present is the next level of consideration.


_Rick
 
jondrums

jondrums

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
here's the rule of thumb I use on frozen ball combination shots:
Maximum throw is about 1" per foot.
("Bud Harris" quote printed in Banking with the Beard)

Your cue is probably 58"-60" long (5 feet) so its not too hard to measure out exactly what the maximum throw off the frozen ball line - 5" out at one cue length.

It seems to me that I can get the maximum throw if I use about a 1/4 ball hit with inside english, and a medium/slow speed shot.

The cut angle does about two inches of the work, the slow speed does about another two inches, and the inside english does the last inch (over 60"). Did that just make sense?

Example: I have to throw the dead ball combination 3 inches over the length of my cue. Well that could be done with a 1/4 ball cut with inside english and a fast speed (fast speed negates some of the throw effect). Or I could do it with a little less cut angle no english and medium speed.

The best way to learn this stuff is to spend about an hour and actually measure out the effects of each parameter (cut angle, speed, english). Honestly that hour will be one of the most valuable practice hours you have this year - it was for me!

I have found that draw and follow don't really effect the combination angle - BUT on rare days when I'm really in stroke, I can effect the path of the first ball a little with transfered draw or follow while still making the deadball!

Once you have a really full understanding of two ball fozen combinations, you can use the same theory with three and more ball combinations.

Jon
ps. I've never seen anything like this system in print - anyone have any sources that talk in-depth about this stuff?
 
Kevin

Kevin

Dr. Kevorkian of Threads
Silver Member
jondrums said:
ps. I've never seen anything like this system in print - anyone have any sources that talk in-depth about this stuff?
Click to expand...

It's one of the Dark Arts of playing. Beyond Ray Martin's 99 critical shots, I would consult Byrne's books and videos, and not overlook standard trick shots.

Trick shots give you a practical (and fun) lesson in throws, caroms, etc. And some that show balls automagically clearing the path before a ball emerges from the pack will open your eyes to some interesting possibilities. Specifically I am referring to understanding what even a small gap between balls can do. Might even recommend Joe Tucker's racking secrets materials.
 
arsenius

arsenius

Nothing ever registers...
Silver Member
Kevin said:
It's one of the Dark Arts of playing. Beyond Ray Martin's 99 critical shots, I would consult Byrne's books and videos, and not overlook standard trick shots.

Trick shots give you a practical (and fun) lesson in throws, caroms, etc. And some that show balls automagically clearing the path before a ball emerges from the pack will open your eyes to some interesting possibilities. Specifically I am referring to understanding what even a small gap between balls can do. Might even recommend Joe Tucker's racking secrets materials.
Click to expand...
I hate trick shots. Every time someone tries to show me one my eyes glaze over. But that is the best reason for learning some I've ever heard. Next time someone shows me a trick maybe my ears will perk up a little more.:)
 
Pushout

Pushout

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
arsenius said:
I hate trick shots. Every time someone tries to show me one my eyes glaze over. But that is the best reason for learning some I've ever heard. Next time someone shows me a trick maybe my ears will perk up a little more.:)
Click to expand...

Bob Byrne's books have several trick shots that can be applied to actual play. I used to have a list of shots from the trick shot book that could be used in games. There was one shot in particular, that cleared two balls out of the way of the cue ball and made a called ball in the corner pocket. I don't remember off hand which book it was in or what number shot it was, but I know it dropped a few jaws when I showed it to some people. Even more so when I was able to apply the same principle to a shot in a game and made it;) The principles of the shots are what's important and what allows you to see a shot that someone else might not. I was playing an arch-nemesis one night and called the 6 ball out of the rack. I hit the shot and before the ball came out of the rack my opponent had grabbed his cue and started walking toward the table. The ball slowly rolled to the pocket and he sat back down with a puzzled look on his face. He'd played me safe out of that rack and didn't see the shot.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
"Unblocking" Caroms

In this cluster the frozen pairs 2-15 and 7-9 might be dead caroms for the upper and lower corner pockets, but they're both blocked by other balls.

CueTable Help



Fortunately you see what others can't and make them both with a single shot, winning the trophy and the girl.

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Look at the 2-15 pair to see what happens. The key is to recognize that you can make the 15 carom off the 3 and the 2 separately, one after the other, by shooting it toward one or the other. So if you shoot the 15 toward the 3 (away from the 2) it will carom first off the 3 and then off the 2 into the corner, moving the 3 out of the way in the process.

The same thing happens with the 9 off the 11-7 into the other corner.

pj
chgo
 
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