Tip size, accuracy, why?

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Scenario: I've never been much of a player, and have not played for 12 years, and just got a table and starting to learn again. I wanted to understand the whole low deflection issue, and also tips.

With the kind assistance of Billiard Bills (Bill Lister) I first got a new tip, and now have a setup with a low and regular deflection shaft with the same tip on each (Precision Layered medium) to compare on the same butt. Serious kudos there, lots of help.

My question is not about low deflection. I'm shooting alternate racks with each, I see the difference, I understand the LD issue, and frankly can't decide if I have a preference. I'll get there with some more shooting. Let's not talk about squirt.

My question is about tip size. Maybe taper. The difference in feel due to size on these shafts is immense.

Most of what I read implies that tip size affects how accurate you need to be. The general sense I get is by being a smaller size, you are required to hit more accurately wherever you hit, e.g. trying to hit in the center with a small tip you are more likely to introduce spin you did not intend by being off center.

Why?

OK, let me elaborate just a bit. Both of my tips - 13mm and 11.75 are cut to approximately the same radius by Bill ("Between a dime and a nickel").

Assuming these are not incredibly soft and same radius, and unless you hit WAY on the side of the cue ball, it seems to me you are going to get the same exact area of contact in the exact same place. It's not like this is a concave surface that's different sizes and cups the ball -- both are the same type tip, same radius -- for the same speed hit, it seems like to me their point and size of contact is the same.

So why do people say it requires more accuracy for smaller tips?

Is it that it is more difficult to BE accurate, to hold properly?

Does taper play a role? That seems to add to the "delicate" feeling of the LD shaft.

Or is it actually bunk? That it's all about feel and preference but for center-aimed hits they are about the same?

Or is it that people with 13mm tips generally use a nickel radius and with small tips a dime or smaller? Since the tips deform, there is then a difference in contact area. But that's about radius, not size.

Or is it that most small shafts seem to be low deflection, and slight off-center shots actually do go in a different direction (but... that would seem to imply the LD would be more accurate if you are off center a bit).

So... why do people say you have to be more accurate in your stroke to use a small tip? With the caveat I'm pretty darn inaccurate, I'm just not seeing it.

For reference, if I shoot a rack myself, I'll probably miss 5-10 shots before I pocket 15 balls, so way down in the "D" category. But a couple weeks ago it was 10-20 misses. ;)
 

grindz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't want to sound mean, but you really are a long way from worrying about
That, and your resources would be much better spent on other areas of the game.

Td
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't want to sound mean, but you really are a long way from worrying about
That, and your resources would be much better spent on other areas of the game.

Td

You can only practice so long each day, so I spend a lot of time reading, and thinking.

The Sundance Kid: "You just keep thinking Butch, that's what you're good at".

Apologies if it was an inappropriate posting in some fashion.
 

De420MadHatter

SicBiNature
Silver Member
None of it matters, AT ALL! It's whatever feels best to you :thumbup:. You get all caught up in shaft size, tip radius, etc....you will always be at handicap without your equipment. Spend your time, building a solid stroke, and none of it will matter.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Smaller diameter shafts are great IF you have a straight, repeatable stroke. If you can't return the tip to PRECISELY where you want it on the cue-ball you're much better off with say 12.25mm and larger. I tried(briefly) a 11.75 Euro-tapered shaft and while i liked the LD it offered i found i was getting too much unwanted spin. Currently using a 12.5mm solid wood shaft and i really like it.
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
None of it matters, AT ALL! It's whatever feels best to you :thumbup:. You get all caught up in shaft size, tip radius, etc....you will always be at handicap without your equipment. Spend your time, building a solid stroke, and none of it will matter.
Yes, Size Matters!
At least in tip size. (That's what she said!)
Seriously, stick with the larger diameter tip and practice with just the one cue so you get to know how that cue and tip plays. Then maybe down the road you will have a foundation of cue behavior knowledge that you can use to do a comparison of different tip sizes.

Play, practice, have fun.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Smaller diameter shafts are great IF you have a straight, repeatable stroke. If you can't return the tip to PRECISELY where you want it on the cue-ball you're much better off with say 12.25mm and larger. I tried(briefly) a 11.75 Euro-tapered shaft and while i liked the LD it offered i found i was getting too much unwanted spin. Currently using a 12.5mm solid wood shaft and i really like it.

Thanks, and thanks generally for the advice. I realize my game is not up to the distinction, but if someone has a bit of patience, is there any physics you can share behind why people feel the smaller diameter requires more precision on the stroke.

I've read (and just read again) the discussions here a billiards.colostate.edu, and while there is mention size, the accuracy issue seems only to be tied to curve radius:

One advantage of a flatter tip is that a center-ball hit, with some tip placement inaccuracy, will generally have less unintentional english

In other words is about tip curve radius, not tip width.

Everyone is right - this doesn't really affect my learning of physical skills. But I'm an engineer by trade and it's hard to stop the mind from asking questions when you see commonly expressed wisdom and can't figure out the underlying principles.

And maybe the real answer is -- it doesn't matter for anyone, the idea it does is a myth?
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My question is about tip size. Maybe taper. The difference in feel due to size on these shafts is immense.

Most of what I read implies that tip size affects how accurate you need to be. The general sense I get is by being a smaller size, you are required to hit more accurately wherever you hit, e.g. trying to hit in the center with a small tip you are more likely to introduce spin you did not intend by being off center.

Why?

The smaller tip is on the thinner shaft.
Thin shafts are more whippy.
So when the tip makes contact with whitey, the shaft bends out of the way.
........if the tip hits the CB on center the shaft compresses;
but...if the tip hits the CB off center the shaft slides off the CB imparting spin ou did not account for.

It is not a problem with the tip.
You could (COULD) have the larger tip carved down to the size of the smaller tip and it would continue to play almost the same.

The issue is the thinness of the shaft.
You might be interested to know that as the shaft diameter (at any point) becomes thinner the whippyness of the cure rises with the cube (x**3) of the thinness. So, take 10% of the diameter off the cue shaft and the shaft is not a bit more than 30% more whippy.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
@MitchAlsup - interesting. And the taper would be significant there also I think as well as construction type to achieve the LD aspect (e.g. laminates). Have to think about that a bit, on the surface it makes sense, though that would seem to imply a LD shaft could not in total impart as much (purposeful) spin, which the BU site seems to say is not true. Need to go read that section again.

Thank you.
 

Ched

"Hey ... I'm back"!
Silver Member
I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, but ...
I think a LOT of what you're asking you will have to answer for yourself. SO SO much of what you say/ask all depends on personal preference. Now, having said that:

I prefer 12.25 - 12.75 (but can adjust beyond that too). For me, I have a lot of decent sticks, and hate for the purchase to go to waste, so I change around a fair amount so they all get some attention. Still, in general, I alternate between the following two.
1. Joss custom, SS joint, Joss HP shaft w/12.25 med. Joss tip. 12-14 pro taper. Firm crisp hit. Best feedback.
2. Lucasi custom tuxedo merry widow with black stacked leather wrap, 12.75 Lucasi Zeroflex shaft with G2 soft tip. 12-14 pro taper. Very soft smooth hit. Good action on cue ball.

Yes - the difference between the two is night and day. What I take to a game depends a LOT on the situation: Who I'm playing with. Where I'm playing. Why I'm playing. But in the end the biggest factor in my choice is the mood I'm in, and what I "feel" like playing with.

I wouldn't say a smaller tip shooter has to be "more accurate", but rather in looking at the shot there's a bit wider range of choices in where you hit the cue. With a 13mm tip you eye up say between the 3 and 3:30 position about 1 tip out. With a 12mm tip, you see a bit more of the ball, and can eye up say between 3:15 and 3:30, at maybe 1 and 1/2 tip out.

As far as taper, I think the majority of difference in FEEL is more noticeable in a closed bridge. Some want a consistent thickness as they stroke. Others feel the gradual taper gives them a better feel on how far in their stroke is. In general, I believe a conical taper tends to hit a bit firmer (more "squirt"), but there are MANY factors in that. (tip size, joint, ferrule material and size, tip softness, etc.)

In the end you'll have to decide yourself on what you prefer. It's like cooking - there are so many factors, and each person has their own personal "tastes". (edit:) In general (again) at the early and mid stages I believe it's more profitable to work on stance, bridge, and stroke being consistent than to worry too much about a lot of the other things you mention.

All IMHO
 
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fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
The smaller tip is on the thinner shaft.
Thin shafts are more whippy.
So when the tip makes contact with whitey, the shaft bends out of the way.
........if the tip hits the CB on center the shaft compresses;
but...if the tip hits the CB off center the shaft slides off the CB imparting spin ou did not account for.

It is not a problem with the tip.
You could (COULD) have the larger tip carved down to the size of the smaller tip and it would continue to play almost the same.

The issue is the thinness of the shaft.
You might be interested to know that as the shaft diameter (at any point) becomes thinner the whippyness of the cure rises with the cube (x**3) of the thinness. So, take 10% of the diameter off the cue shaft and the shaft is not a bit more than 30% more whippy.

I find this very interesting. My regular player is 12.75mm McDermott G-Core which some people say isnt even an LD shaft. I also have an 11.50mm Predator which to me seems to play just like my bigger diameter G-Core as far as deflection.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You can decide for yourself whether one tip is more accurate than the other. That way you don't have to depend on the answers above, some of which are, umm...., not completely useful.

Put balls along the side cushions. Starting with the cue ball on the foot spot, shoot straight up the center of the table to the middle of the far end rail and try to hit a selected ball on the side cushion. Keep score if that's your style. Try both cues.

Second part, draw accuracy: Put a ball by the side pocket and the cue ball in the center of the table. Make the ball and draw the cue ball straight across the table to the other side rail. Leave the cue ball as close as possible to the rail. See which cue gives you more accuracy. (10 points for freezing, 5 points for within a ball, 3 points for within two balls, 1 point for within a handspan)

I think I can guess what your result will be. If you do the test, we can compare my guess with your actual result.

The tips you have are not a wide range of diameters. I've played with tips from 6mm to 16mm. (Neither of the extremes is any good for pool, so I wouldn't recommend trying them.) Tapers have varied from extreme conical in the first six inches to reverse (some call it "bell") in the first six inches.
 
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Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, but ...
I think a LOT of what you're asking you will have to answer for yourself. SO SO much of what you say/ask all depends on personal preference. Now, having said that:

Didn't think that at all, thank you for the thoughts.

I think what I'm asking is less about opinion or preference and more whether one actually does (for example) impart more unintended spin for the same distance off in hit.

Now having said that it certainly morphs partly into whether the smaller shaft has a ... maybe psychological ... impact on how accurately I can hit. :angry:

But to all the above, everyone is of course right, a lot of this is what feels and works best for me (and in part thus what gets my mindset in the best frame). Yes, I get that. That's why I continue to alternate racks.

Put balls along the side cushions. Starting with the cue ball on the foot spot, shoot straight up the center of the table to the middle of the far end rail and try to hit a selected ball on the side cushion. Keep score if that's your style. Try both cues.

Second part, draw accuracy: Put a ball by the side pocket and the cue ball in the center of the table. Make the ball and draw the cue ball straight across the table to the other side rail. Leave the cue ball as close as possible to the rail. See which cue gives you more accuracy. (10 points for freezing, 5 points for within a ball, 3 points for within two balls, 1 point for within a handspan)

I think I can guess what your result will be. If you do the test, we can compare my guess with your actual result.

I will, though I fear my inconsistency is large enough a few tests won't be significant. I still find myself all over the place.

It's interesting you mention draw. That is the one place I am seeing a real difference, and it may simply be that the smaller diameter lets me get lower and I'm going too low, but I'm getting a mis-cue or hop (or both) more frequently with the LD shaft. I also THINK I'm getting side spin when I do not want it; I need to get a "measles" ball (I think that's the right name, all I have at the moment is the blue dot one). Though I can just switch to a stripe I guess -- still something a bit mind-bending about using a non-white-ball as a cue.

I'll report back when I think I can do it consistently enough to tell. Starting to wonder if I ought to shoot a day with each, instead of a rack -- maybe I'm screwing myself up too much switching.
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The smaller tip is on the thinner shaft.
Thin shafts are more whippy.
So when the tip makes contact with whitey, the shaft bends out of the way.
........if the tip hits the CB on center the shaft compresses;
but...if the tip hits the CB off center the shaft slides off the CB imparting spin ou did not account for.

It is not a problem with the tip.
You could (COULD) have the larger tip carved down to the size of the smaller tip and it would continue to play almost the same.

The issue is the thinness of the shaft.
You might be interested to know that as the shaft diameter (at any point) becomes thinner the whippyness of the cure rises with the cube (x**3) of the thinness. So, take 10% of the diameter off the cue shaft and the shaft is not a bit more than 30% more whippy.

I think this is very much over generalization. Stiffness and diameter are not necessarily related. My OB Pro Plus shaft (11.75mm) is much stiffer than my 314-3. The 314-3 has ever so slightly lower deflection. I've felt other 11.75 shafts that feel like a wet noodle. The Meucci pro shaft is 12.625mm, and is quite whippy indeed. The taper, wood, and interior construction typically have more influence on the stiffness of a shaft than the diameter. With all that said, you really just need to find what feels good to you, stick with it, and learn it.

I think the OP is comparing polar opposite shaft types. Personally I think something like the Z2 has the lowest deflection, but is also quite stiff. I don't necessarily go for the lowest deflection. I DO go for a taper that feels comfortable to me.

KMRUNOUT
 

SpiderWeb

iisgone@yahoo.com
Silver Member
Just go to the pool hall and go from table to table and ask to shoot a few shots with many different cues. After a while you will get it figured out.
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
Just go to the pool hall and go from table to table and ask to shoot a few shots with many different cues. After a while you will get it figured out.
Your Billiards Establishment must be much more friendly than the ones I've been to if the players let a Noob try out their cues.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the OP is comparing polar opposite shaft types. Personally I think something like the Z2 has the lowest deflection, but is also quite stiff. I don't necessarily go for the lowest deflection. I DO go for a taper that feels comfortable to me.

Yes. If I'm going to be practicing most days, I wanted early on to try to zero in on at least a general class of cue (LD or not, general tip hardness, general shaft thickness and taper) to something I like, and in my mind trying polar opposites at least gets me moving in the right direction, even if what I finally want is somewhere in between.

But...this question is not really about what shaft I like, but rather to try to understand better the common wisdom I've seen expressed that smaller diameter shafts require more accuracy of the player.

Yes, I get that I should pick one I like. My question is more theoretical than practical.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Put balls along the side cushions. Starting with the cue ball on the foot spot, shoot straight up the center of the table to the middle of the far end rail and try to hit a selected ball on the side cushion. Keep score if that's your style. Try both cues.
....
I think I can guess what your result will be. If you do the test, we can compare my guess with your actual result.

Thanks Bob, for an interesting drill, but help me out as to what might be best in terms of where on the side?

I spent some time experimenting near the mis-cue limit for a medium speed shot.

I found with about the same speed, just prior to miscue, I can hit the center of the far rail and end up between 2 and 1 diamonds beyond the side pocket. I can comfortable repeat hitting one diamond several shots in a row, with either cue.

That's not to say I can hit a ball at an arbitrary point each time, but if I practice for a given point, I can do it repeatedly and do not see much difference in the consistency between shafts.

Now there's clearly some differences. I have to aim more to one side with the regular shaft of course. I feel like a get a few more miscues with the regular shaft, and I feel like I am unconsciously hitting softer with the LD shaft -- these two probably are from the same cause.

I think the more interesting question is, for an arbitrary and changing ball on the side rail, which can I hit it better with. I'm not consistent enough yet I can answer that.

Were you expecting me to see a difference in ability to draw it further up the table with one or the other?

Or were you expecting me to see that it is easier to hit an arbitrarily placed ball?

PS. Need to still work on my draw to answer your other one, I find I'm getting a bit of unintended side spin with both cues, not sure if it's coming from the stroke, or not hitting the target ball square.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Second part, draw accuracy: Put a ball by the side pocket and the cue ball in the center of the table. Make the ball and draw the cue ball straight across the table to the other side rail. Leave the cue ball as close as possible to the rail. See which cue gives you more accuracy. (10 points for freezing, 5 points for within a ball, 3 points for within two balls, 1 point for within a handspan)

I think I can guess what your result will be. If you do the test, we can compare my guess with your actual result.
/QUOTE]

Tired of hitting a ball sideways, I spent an hour or so playing with this, again without learning a lot other than I have virtually zero draw accuracy. All too often the ball takes off sideways, and even using strips I cannot quite tell if it's from a bad hit (spin from the hit) or hitting the OB off center, or both. I'm going to go with both.

But even when it comes straight back I'm lucky to be within a foot, sometimes on the rebound sometimes not. Clearly a lot of practice needed here.

I will say that with the smaller tip I can draw back further, fairly consistently. I also get a few more mis-cues (interestingly about half of which hop the ball and still sink the OB :eek: ), but I think not so many as to offset the advantage. This could also be psychological, as I'm trying not to hit the cloth (new table!) and it seems easier to get near the bottom of the ball with the smaller tip.

But -- I think bottom line of both things is I'm not consistent enough to learn much from it.

And I still alternate which one I like, though I'm starting to develop a mild preference for the LD shaft and smaller tip. Can't say why, it just feels better.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep using them as they are good exercises, along with (perhaps even more importantly) just being able to stop the cue ball in place reliably.
 
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