Something Your Teacher Can Teach You...

bbb

AzB Gold Member
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My point is that when there's maximum top spin on the cue ball, you can literally see it spinning forward once it stops sliding. You're applying plenty of force to the shot, but I'm not really seeing the driving topspin. I'm not sure what adding another blocking ball, as you suggested, has to do with force follow. I don't see it that way. What you're showing in that shot is a change of direction which I think is taking a lot of energy from the shot, leaving nothing much left after the change of direction.

fran
to me making the cue ball have enough follow to rebound off the cushion and then to have enough follow to bend the cue ball path back to the rail is what many would call force follow force .
if the object ball was hit more thickly the bend would happen sooner and the cue ball would stay close to where it hit the object ball
if the object ball was hit much more thinly the force of the rebound would be stronger than the follow so the cue ball would bend back little if at all
denwits shot is learning to blend the thickness of hit to get the bend to occur where he wants
based on your stroke the more rpms you can generate on the cue ball
the farther off the rail you can get the follow to overcome the rebound force
thus determining f you can do 1/2/3/4/5 balls as blockers
thats how i see it
lastly
for me force follow is maximum high with alot of force
causing the cue ball to appear to turbo charge forward
in reality you are seeing the transition from slide to when the follow kick in
jmho
icbw
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some clarification: I don't think I wrote "mostly for snooker", I wrote how some British players use the term "force follow" for a power stroke that jumps the cue ball into the air a bit, so that momentum is dispersed away from the two balls, and the cue ball follows after the object ball a short distance for such a strong stroke. On a straight shot, you hit it high, you hit it hard, and the cue ball dies a few inches to a foot along the cloth.

It is physically impossible to make a cue ball out-spin its forward travel along the cloth--topspin is simply a forward-rolling ball. On this thread, a lot of the force follow strokes under discussion are talking about maximum touch and distance with a follow stroke.

While I agree with "It is physically impossible to make a cue ball out-spin its forward travel along the cloth--topspin is simply a forward-rolling ball." at least being almost true, Mike Page demonstrates a tiny bit but generally I agree that is a common misunderstanding of what goes on with force follow. What I don't understand is the idea that the forward roll energy gets displaced upwards and the cue ball rolls forward only a few inches.

Every force follow shot I have seen or experienced or even high action follow or long rolling cue ball shot defies that as a possibility. The cue ball is being forced to follow more rapidly and farther, not to stop, unless it collide with an obstacle with more mass than itself (like a rail or rack of balls) and doubles back into that object, dissipating the energy. The idea that it slows or stops on an open area of the table is something I have never seen demonstrated and of which I am very skeptical.

I would be curious if anyone else has seen a force follow (or any type of follow) shot that dissipates its energy vertically after collision with a single object ball of similar mass then only rolls forward a short distance. The only "kill" effect I have seen is cue ball to object ball to rail then back to rail, the "rail dribble" effect.
 
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BC21

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fran
to me making the cue ball have enough follow to rebound off the cushion and then to have enough follow to bend the cue ball path back to the rail is what many would call force follow force .
if the object ball was hit more thickly the bend would happen sooner and the cue ball would stay close to where it hit the object ball
if the object ball was hit much more thinly the force of the rebound would be stronger than the follow so the cue ball would bend back little if at all
denwits shot is learning to blend the thickness of hit to get the bend to occur where he wants
based on your stroke the more rpms you can generate on the cue ball
the farther off the rail you can get the follow to overcome the rebound force
thus determining f you can do 1/2/3/4/5 balls as blockers
thats how i see it
lastly
for me force follow is maximum high with alot of force
causing the cue ball to appear to turbo charge forward
in reality you are seeing the transition from slide to when the follow kick in
jmho
icbw

Good point. The thing is, it's trick shot stuff. There is a minimal usage of force follow shots, maybe coming into play about 1 out of 50 shots, or even less frequent than that, as far as really high and with a lot of force. No good player in a tournament or high-stakes match is going to go for a trick shot win unless he or she is 100% sure of not selling out. And that level of surety is uncommon.

And I'm not saying a normal force follow shot is usually high-risk, because that's not true. I use it most often to stop the CB, also called a top stop or double stop. I can't remember the last time, if ever, I had to pull a full-table force-follow around 4 blockers in order to win a game. It's a cool shot, but not something i would spend practice time on, unless I was interested in trick shot competitions.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dennis...I suspect Robin is rolling his eyes when he sees you arguing about something as silly as force follow. There are specific definitions of what force follow is, and they have been posted here in this thread. Yet you seem to think you know more than the other instructors pointing out your errors. Having spoken with Robin a few times, I feel that he is on the same page as most of the better instructors here...and would not argue the point like you seem to enjoy. Give it a rest...:rolleyes:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I don't see what the problem is here. I was seeing a respectful discussion that was going on. He was using force and he was using top spin. It's just a matter of specifics that are worth while debating. He certainly opened my eyes to a few things, such as maybe we should consider broadening the definition of force follow.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Good point. The thing is, it's trick shot stuff. There is a minimal usage of force follow shots, maybe coming into play about 1 out of 50 shots, or even less frequent than that, as far as really high and with a lot of force. No good player in a tournament or high-stakes match is going to go for a trick shot win unless he or she is 100% sure of not selling out. And that level of surety is uncommon.

And I'm not saying a normal force follow shot is usually high-risk, because that's not true. I use it most often to stop the CB, also called a top stop or double stop. I can't remember the last time, if ever, I had to pull a full-table force-follow around 4 blockers in order to win a game. It's a cool shot, but not something i would spend practice time on, unless I was interested in trick shot competitions.

Brian, you just have not seen it through Robin. I have shown a few shots on here using Youtube but it is nothing compared what he can do in normal games getting shape, busting clusters, avoiding cluster balls, etc. It is a pattern (not like a trick shot) that can be learned just like where the CB goes after hitting a frozen OB and a double kiss off of it. That is another skill that can be learned and mastered. There are many many ways where the force follow shot is the only way to get shape on the next ball. I suppose one has to see it to believe it. My whole point of this was to get pool players to get out and see their teaching professionals to learn this stuff. I've already heard from 5 guys that claim they did not know the shots I have videoed and they are working on it. Too bad they don't have Robin in their area.
 
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BC21

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Brian, you just have not seen it through Robin. I have shown a few shots on here using Youtube but it is nothing compared what he can do in normal games getting shape, busting clusters, avoiding cluster balls, etc. It is a pattern (not like a trick shot) that can be learned just like where the CB goes after hitting a frozen OB and a double kiss off of it. That is another skill that can be learned and mastered. There are many many ways where the force follow shot is the only way to get shape on the next ball. I suppose one has to see it to believe it. My whole point of this was to get pool players to get out and see their teaching professionals to learn this stuff. I've already heard from 5 guys that claim they did not know the shots I have videoed and they are working on it. Too bad they don't have Robin in their area.

I understand completely. I'm not part of the 95% that doesn't know these shots. Though I don't think it's really 95%. I believe more know this than you think. And yes the follow action, as well as draw, can do wonders for position play. I just don't find myself needed a massive amount of force follow very often. But it's a handy tool when needed.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
fran
to me making the cue ball have enough follow to rebound off the cushion and then to have enough follow to bend the cue ball path back to the rail is what many would call force follow force .
if the object ball was hit more thickly the bend would happen sooner and the cue ball would stay close to where it hit the object ball
if the object ball was hit much more thinly the force of the rebound would be stronger than the follow so the cue ball would bend back little if at all
denwits shot is learning to blend the thickness of hit to get the bend to occur where he wants
based on your stroke the more rpms you can generate on the cue ball
the farther off the rail you can get the follow to overcome the rebound force
thus determining f you can do 1/2/3/4/5 balls as blockers
thats how i see it
lastly
for me force follow is maximum high with alot of force
causing the cue ball to appear to turbo charge forward
in reality you are seeing the transition from slide to when the follow kick in
jmho
icbw

Yup. I think it's more of a matter of what the shot was typically used for during the course of play that gave it the name force follow. As I wrote earlier on, the definition that we have all come to know focuses more on the visual results of the shot where you can see the top spin kick in for that second drive forward. The key is that both kicks are driving the cue ball forward in the same direction.

When you bring a rail into play or try forcing a cue ball around obstructing balls, it gets tricky to define it as the same type of shot that traditionally defined it as force follow. But I don't dispute that there was both force and top spin used on those skill shots.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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I understand completely. I'm not part of the 95% that doesn't know these shots. Though I don't think it's really 95%. I believe more know this than you think. And yes the follow action, as well as draw, can do wonders for position play. I just don't find myself needed a massive amount of force follow very often. But it's a handy tool when needed.

https://youtu.be/o0_khLKS7OM. This shot right here is a very basic (what I call a) force follow shot. It's not hard nor violent, but someone knows they need to do it to avoid the obstruction balls and the very top part of the CB must be struck to get the little bit of bending needed to avoid the cluster balls. Would this be a "trick" shot or something that is easy to know? I do know that someone has to know about it, knows how to achieve it, and expects it to happen on the shot. One of the many things I work on.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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https://youtu.be/o0_khLKS7OM. This shot right here is a very basic (what I call a) force follow shot. It's not hard nor violent, but someone knows they need to do it to avoid the obstruction balls and the very top part of the CB must be struck to get the little bit of bending needed to avoid the cluster balls. Would this be a "trick" shot or something that is easy to know? I do know that someone has to know about it, knows how to achieve it, and expects it to happen on the shot. One of the many things I work on.

Now that one is definitely not a force follow shot. It's just a top spin shot with a little speed. Trick shot? Not at all. Very common and easy to do.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Now that one is definitely not a force follow shot. It's just a top spin shot with a little speed. Trick shot? Not at all. Very common and easy to do.

Well, I do believe that anytime the CB bends in the shape of high follow, it is "forced follow". It's all just a matter of how much, what angle we hit the OB whether it rebounds into the rail again or on and off to another mission. The hit on the CB is the same in both instances. I do believe most pool players do not know of all the things that can be accomplished with this shot. I have a teacher that can show it all if someone asks him.
 

BC21

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https://youtu.be/o0_khLKS7OM. This shot right here is a very basic (what I call a) force follow shot. It's not hard nor violent, but someone knows they need to do it to avoid the obstruction balls and the very top part of the CB must be struck to get the little bit of bending needed to avoid the cluster balls. Would this be a "trick" shot or something that is easy to know? I do know that someone has to know about it, knows how to achieve it, and expects it to happen on the shot. One of the many things I work on.

I like this shot. It's not a trick shot. I even gave it thumbs up when you first uploaded it to YouTube.:wink:
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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I like this shot. It's not a trick shot. I even gave it thumbs up when you first uploaded it to YouTube.:wink:

Thanks. Oh how I wish I could film all of the things Robin can do with forced follow. I think even you would be determined they are not trick shots. He can just make the CB perform missions we didn't know was possible. I've learned a little but still can't make the CB absolutely bend forward as he can do but I'm still working on it. Guess it has to be seen to believe it. Would love for you to go on out to Portland to see this amazing man as Larry (bbb) has done. I hope you can do that to increase your pool playing ability.
 

BC21

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Thanks. Oh how I wish I could film all of the things Robin can do with forced follow. I think even you would be determined they are not trick shots. He can just make the CB perform missions we didn't know was possible. I've learned a little but still can't make the CB absolutely bend forward as he can do but I'm still working on it. Guess it has to be seen to believe it. Would love for you to go on out to Portland to see this amazing man as Larry (bbb) has done. I hope you can do that to increase your pool playing ability.

I've seen it all, by many players over the years. No trip across country necessary. There are also a lot of great world-beater shots using draw. The only shot I was really calling a trick shot is lining several balls out from the rail and using force follow to bend around them. It's really just a great stroke shot, not a trick shot anyway.
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
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https://youtu.be/o0_khLKS7OM. This shot right here is a very basic (what I call a) force follow shot. It's not hard nor violent, but someone knows they need to do it to avoid the obstruction balls and the very top part of the CB must be struck to get the little bit of bending needed to avoid the cluster balls. Would this be a "trick" shot or something that is easy to know? I do know that someone has to know about it, knows how to achieve it, and expects it to happen on the shot. One of the many things I work on.

There are rare cases where there is only one way to skin the cat. Top reverse here also gets nice position while avoiding the obstacles. Probably my 1st choice as I shoot a lot of reverse English shots. The cue ball goes to the head rail and comes straight back or even back to the left on this shot. I like a 30 degree angle for next shot position so would probably not want to go force follow the 3 rail route here. I am that guy would could figure out a way to find the side pocket with the cue ball. I would like the result and consistency of the medium speed reverse English top shot and an almost straight back off the head rail position. My margin for error this way to get an angle from 20-40 degree angle on the next shot is pretty good. I also don't go anywhere near a pocket and don't have to hit it quite as hard. The reverse spin does take some speed off but still a softer hit than a force follow. That does not mean I think your shot does not have value. I am just saying it is more rare that it is the ONLY way to get the job done and that is why it is not as common as it could be.

If the Cue ball were at a more severe angle then you are showing, like against the left rail, I might be forced to go around to the right but even then straight draw can get the job done. Things don't have to change much form shot to shot to open and close position play options. :) I save force follow for almost straight in shots along a rail (closer to the rail) where I barely have any angle and have to hit the cue ball full in the face, maybe even cheat the pocket a little, then come back all the way down table. And even then I avoid them if the object ball is too close to the pocket or the cue ball does not have time to develop enough forward roll to avoid the "rail dribble" effect. It should also be noted I am lousy at any distance shot requiring a hard hit. Probably have a crappy stroke at the root of it all. :)
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
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The Force Follow is what gives a Jedi, I mean, pool shooter, his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

Trust your feelings! The Force Follow will be with you always.
 
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