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BC21
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12-14-2017, 03:16 PM

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Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
Brian, you just have not seen it through Robin. I have shown a few shots on here using Youtube but it is nothing compared what he can do in normal games getting shape, busting clusters, avoiding cluster balls, etc. It is a pattern (not like a trick shot) that can be learned just like where the CB goes after hitting a frozen OB and a double kiss off of it. That is another skill that can be learned and mastered. There are many many ways where the force follow shot is the only way to get shape on the next ball. I suppose one has to see it to believe it. My whole point of this was to get pool players to get out and see their teaching professionals to learn this stuff. I've already heard from 5 guys that claim they did not know the shots I have videoed and they are working on it. Too bad they don't have Robin in their area.
I understand completely. I'm not part of the 95% that doesn't know these shots. Though I don't think it's really 95%. I believe more know this than you think. And yes the follow action, as well as draw, can do wonders for position play. I just don't find myself needed a massive amount of force follow very often. But it's a handy tool when needed.


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FranCrimi
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12-14-2017, 03:49 PM

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Originally Posted by bbb View Post
fran
to me making the cue ball have enough follow to rebound off the cushion and then to have enough follow to bend the cue ball path back to the rail is what many would call force follow force .
if the object ball was hit more thickly the bend would happen sooner and the cue ball would stay close to where it hit the object ball
if the object ball was hit much more thinly the force of the rebound would be stronger than the follow so the cue ball would bend back little if at all
denwits shot is learning to blend the thickness of hit to get the bend to occur where he wants
based on your stroke the more rpms you can generate on the cue ball
the farther off the rail you can get the follow to overcome the rebound force
thus determining f you can do 1/2/3/4/5 balls as blockers
thats how i see it
lastly
for me force follow is maximum high with alot of force
causing the cue ball to appear to turbo charge forward
in reality you are seeing the transition from slide to when the follow kick in
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icbw
Yup. I think it's more of a matter of what the shot was typically used for during the course of play that gave it the name force follow. As I wrote earlier on, the definition that we have all come to know focuses more on the visual results of the shot where you can see the top spin kick in for that second drive forward. The key is that both kicks are driving the cue ball forward in the same direction.

When you bring a rail into play or try forcing a cue ball around obstructing balls, it gets tricky to define it as the same type of shot that traditionally defined it as force follow. But I don't dispute that there was both force and top spin used on those skill shots.


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12-14-2017, 04:02 PM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
I understand completely. I'm not part of the 95% that doesn't know these shots. Though I don't think it's really 95%. I believe more know this than you think. And yes the follow action, as well as draw, can do wonders for position play. I just don't find myself needed a massive amount of force follow very often. But it's a handy tool when needed.
https://youtu.be/o0_khLKS7OM. This shot right here is a very basic (what I call a) force follow shot. It's not hard nor violent, but someone knows they need to do it to avoid the obstruction balls and the very top part of the CB must be struck to get the little bit of bending needed to avoid the cluster balls. Would this be a "trick" shot or something that is easy to know? I do know that someone has to know about it, knows how to achieve it, and expects it to happen on the shot. One of the many things I work on.


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12-15-2017, 07:46 AM

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Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
https://youtu.be/o0_khLKS7OM. This shot right here is a very basic (what I call a) force follow shot. It's not hard nor violent, but someone knows they need to do it to avoid the obstruction balls and the very top part of the CB must be struck to get the little bit of bending needed to avoid the cluster balls. Would this be a "trick" shot or something that is easy to know? I do know that someone has to know about it, knows how to achieve it, and expects it to happen on the shot. One of the many things I work on.
Now that one is definitely not a force follow shot. It's just a top spin shot with a little speed. Trick shot? Not at all. Very common and easy to do.


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12-15-2017, 07:59 AM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Now that one is definitely not a force follow shot. It's just a top spin shot with a little speed. Trick shot? Not at all. Very common and easy to do.
Well, I do believe that anytime the CB bends in the shape of high follow, it is "forced follow". It's all just a matter of how much, what angle we hit the OB whether it rebounds into the rail again or on and off to another mission. The hit on the CB is the same in both instances. I do believe most pool players do not know of all the things that can be accomplished with this shot. I have a teacher that can show it all if someone asks him.


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12-15-2017, 08:12 AM

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Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
https://youtu.be/o0_khLKS7OM. This shot right here is a very basic (what I call a) force follow shot. It's not hard nor violent, but someone knows they need to do it to avoid the obstruction balls and the very top part of the CB must be struck to get the little bit of bending needed to avoid the cluster balls. Would this be a "trick" shot or something that is easy to know? I do know that someone has to know about it, knows how to achieve it, and expects it to happen on the shot. One of the many things I work on.
I like this shot. It's not a trick shot. I even gave it thumbs up when you first uploaded it to YouTube.


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12-15-2017, 08:27 AM

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I like this shot. It's not a trick shot. I even gave it thumbs up when you first uploaded it to YouTube.
Thanks. Oh how I wish I could film all of the things Robin can do with forced follow. I think even you would be determined they are not trick shots. He can just make the CB perform missions we didn't know was possible. I've learned a little but still can't make the CB absolutely bend forward as he can do but I'm still working on it. Guess it has to be seen to believe it. Would love for you to go on out to Portland to see this amazing man as Larry (bbb) has done. I hope you can do that to increase your pool playing ability.


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12-15-2017, 08:49 AM

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Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
Thanks. Oh how I wish I could film all of the things Robin can do with forced follow. I think even you would be determined they are not trick shots. He can just make the CB perform missions we didn't know was possible. I've learned a little but still can't make the CB absolutely bend forward as he can do but I'm still working on it. Guess it has to be seen to believe it. Would love for you to go on out to Portland to see this amazing man as Larry (bbb) has done. I hope you can do that to increase your pool playing ability.
I've seen it all, by many players over the years. No trip across country necessary. There are also a lot of great world-beater shots using draw. The only shot I was really calling a trick shot is lining several balls out from the rail and using force follow to bend around them. It's really just a great stroke shot, not a trick shot anyway.


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12-15-2017, 09:16 AM

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Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
https://youtu.be/o0_khLKS7OM. This shot right here is a very basic (what I call a) force follow shot. It's not hard nor violent, but someone knows they need to do it to avoid the obstruction balls and the very top part of the CB must be struck to get the little bit of bending needed to avoid the cluster balls. Would this be a "trick" shot or something that is easy to know? I do know that someone has to know about it, knows how to achieve it, and expects it to happen on the shot. One of the many things I work on.
There are rare cases where there is only one way to skin the cat. Top reverse here also gets nice position while avoiding the obstacles. Probably my 1st choice as I shoot a lot of reverse English shots. The cue ball goes to the head rail and comes straight back or even back to the left on this shot. I like a 30 degree angle for next shot position so would probably not want to go force follow the 3 rail route here. I am that guy would could figure out a way to find the side pocket with the cue ball. I would like the result and consistency of the medium speed reverse English top shot and an almost straight back off the head rail position. My margin for error this way to get an angle from 20-40 degree angle on the next shot is pretty good. I also don't go anywhere near a pocket and don't have to hit it quite as hard. The reverse spin does take some speed off but still a softer hit than a force follow. That does not mean I think your shot does not have value. I am just saying it is more rare that it is the ONLY way to get the job done and that is why it is not as common as it could be.

If the Cue ball were at a more severe angle then you are showing, like against the left rail, I might be forced to go around to the right but even then straight draw can get the job done. Things don't have to change much form shot to shot to open and close position play options. I save force follow for almost straight in shots along a rail (closer to the rail) where I barely have any angle and have to hit the cue ball full in the face, maybe even cheat the pocket a little, then come back all the way down table. And even then I avoid them if the object ball is too close to the pocket or the cue ball does not have time to develop enough forward roll to avoid the "rail dribble" effect. It should also be noted I am lousy at any distance shot requiring a hard hit. Probably have a crappy stroke at the root of it all. :-)

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