Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

That is an interesting table. Thank you for posting the info.

Regards,
Dave

mamics said:

Hi Dave,

Goldball mentioned these measurements in another thread of his friends Heiron & Smith table.

Maybe add it to ur list ? (or maybe not ?)

8 foot table
mouth size 12.2 cm/4.8 inches
throat size 8.2 cm/3.22 inches
shelf depth 5.4cm/2.12 inches

TDF 1.0

It does play very tough along the rails according to goldball, so that mouth & throat measurement must be pretty close to actual (even though its quite unusual ?)

Cheers.

Click to expand...

Here's the latest:

Here's a mobile-friendly online tool (created by "Isaac") and an Excel spreadsheet for automatically calculating the TDF factors to determine the difficulty level of a table.

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_sizeSF -- mouth-throat_differenceAF -- shelf_depthLF -- TDF (table description)
Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 -- 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.39 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 145deg:1.14 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 2 1/8":1.07 -- 1.34 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 7/16":1.05 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition)
chevybob20 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 7/8":1.05 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.18 (Mark Gregory modified Centennial)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.16 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
pocket -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/16":1.10 -- 7/16":0.99 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.12 (unknown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 1 1/4":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.09 -- 2 1/2": 1.07 -- 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Cardigan Kid -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 0.45":0.99 -- 1 5/16":0.99 -- 1.08 (GC II)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16:1.00 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.07 (GCII, RKC mod)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Side Pocket -- 10':1.10 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 15/16":0.98 -- 1.05 (modified GC, measured by rexus31)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.05 ("Cobrasized" GC III)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
CoreyClark -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 1":1.07 -- 2 1//8":1.05 -- 1.02 (GC I)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
Goldball -- 8':0.90 -- 12.2cm:0.91 -- 4cm:1.14 -- 5.4cm:1.07 -- 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
MVPCues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0.625":1.00 -- 1.5":0.98 -- 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
freds -- 8'+: 0.95 -- 4.9":0.91 -- 1.1":1.1 -- 1.8" 1.03 -- 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8)
Cardigan Kid -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, Mark Gregory-modified w/ Artemis cushions)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Poolmanis -- 9':1.00 -- 10.9cm:1.05 -- 1cm:0.97 -- 3.1cm:0.95 -- 0.97 (modified SAM)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.95 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
beetle -- 9':1.00 -- 13.1cm:0.88 -- 2.2cm:1.03 -- 4.3cm:1.00 -- 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie -- 9':1.00 -- 11.5cm:0.95 -- 138.7deg:0.98 -- 3.5cm:0.98 -- 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.91 (GC home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 1":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (GC)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan -- 9':1.0 -- 5": 0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1.5":0.97 -- 0.86 (GC)
SloMoHolic -- 8'+:0.95 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
buckshotshoey -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence")
nateobot -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.85 (custom-made)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
jtaylor996 -- 7':0.85 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 146deg:1.09 -- 1.51":1.00 -- 0.82 (7' Legacy home table)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.79 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)

mamics said:

Hi Dave,

Maybe change the owner of the Heiron & Smith to "Goldballs mate" ?

Goldball doesn't have a table yet, but he is in the market for one.

Cheers.

Click to expand...

FYI, I usually list the AZB member that reports the data, even if the table isn't their own personal table. Not all of the tables reported are home tables.

Thanks again for the info,
Dave

Ralph Kramden said:

dr. dave ... My TDF for your list

1962 Nine foot Gold Crown 1 ..... TSF 1.0
Corner pocket mouth... 4 5/16" ... PSF 1.05
Corner pocket throat.... 3 5/16" ... PAF 1.07
Corner pocket shelf..... 1 3/4" ..... PLF 1.00

1.0 x 1.05 x 1.07 x 1.0 = TDF 1.12

Click to expand...

Thank you for posting. I've added it to the list.

That's pretty tough compared to most Gold Crowns out there.

Regards,
Dave

Here's the latest:

Here's a mobile-friendly online tool (created by "Isaac") and an Excel spreadsheet for automatically calculating the TDF factors to determine the difficulty level of a table.

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_sizeSF -- mouth-throat_differenceAF -- shelf_depthLF -- TDF (table description)
Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 -- 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.39 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 145deg:1.14 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 2 1/8":1.07 -- 1.34 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 7/16":1.05 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition)
chevybob20 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 7/8":1.05 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.18 (Mark-Gregory-modified Centennial)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.16 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
Ralph Kramden -- 9':1.0 -- 4 5/16":1.05 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.12 (1962 Nine foot Gold Crown 1)
pocket -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/16":1.10 -- 7/16":0.99 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.12 (unknown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 1 1/4":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.09 -- 2 1/2": 1.07 -- 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Cardigan Kid -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 0.45":0.99 -- 1 5/16":0.99 -- 1.08 (GC II)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16:1.00 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.07 (GCII, RKC mod)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Side Pocket -- 10':1.10 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 15/16":0.98 -- 1.05 (modified GC, measured by rexus31)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.05 ("Cobrasized" GC III)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
CoreyClark -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 1":1.07 -- 2 1//8":1.05 -- 1.02 (GC I)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
Goldball -- 8':0.90 -- 12.2cm:0.91 -- 4cm:1.14 -- 5.4cm:1.07 -- 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
MVPCues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0.625":1.00 -- 1.5":0.98 -- 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
freds -- 8'+: 0.95 -- 4.9":0.91 -- 1.1":1.1 -- 1.8" 1.03 -- 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8)
Cardigan Kid -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, Mark Gregory-modified w/ Artemis cushions)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Poolmanis -- 9':1.00 -- 10.9cm:1.05 -- 1cm:0.97 -- 3.1cm:0.95 -- 0.97 (modified SAM)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.95 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
beetle -- 9':1.00 -- 13.1cm:0.88 -- 2.2cm:1.03 -- 4.3cm:1.00 -- 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie -- 9':1.00 -- 11.5cm:0.95 -- 138.7deg:0.98 -- 3.5cm:0.98 -- 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.91 (GC home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 1":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (GC)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan -- 9':1.0 -- 5": 0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1.5":0.97 -- 0.86 (GC)
SloMoHolic -- 8'+:0.95 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
buckshotshoey -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence")
nateobot -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.85 (custom-made)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
jtaylor996 -- 7':0.85 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 146deg:1.09 -- 1.51":1.00 -- 0.82 (7' Legacy home table)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.79 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)

Ralph Kramden said:

Even with a PLF of 1.0, the pocket shelf depth is deeper than most Gold Crown tables on your list.

Click to expand...

Good observation. Shelf depth isn't as important as pocket size and facing angle, but it definitely has an effect (especially when comparing a Valley bar box to a tough tournament table, for example).

Catch you later,
Dave

Mike,

Please post your measurements so I can add your table to the list.

1.13 is definitely on the tough side.

Thanks,
Dave

Mikjary said:

Dave,

My home table is a 9' Brunswick Centurion probably from the 80s. I've added Black Diamond rails and Simonis tournament blue 860 HR cloth.

The rails played short for a couple of years, but after a lot of rail testing they seem to have opened up a few degrees.

My numbers were-
9'-1.00
PSF-1.15
PAF-1.00
PLF-.98
Total=1.127

Geno played on it and said it was a "Brutal practice table."

Best,
Mike

Click to expand...

Corwyn_8 said:

I am curious where the table size factors came from. My first (naive) idea gave me:

12' - 1.4
10' - 1.12
9' - 1.00 (defined)
8+' - 0.92
8' - 0.88
7' - 0.84
6' - 0.72

After more thought I got:

12' - 1.96
10' - 1.25
9' - 1.00 (defined)
8+' - 0.85
8' - 0.77
7' - 0.71
6' - 0.52

So I am left wondering how the numbers were established.

Thank you kindly.

Click to expand...

There is no short and simple answer to your question. The values and ranges chosen are not based strictly on formulas. Here is a quote from the table difficulty factor (TDF) resource page that provides some explanation:

All of the values and ranges for the individual TDF factors (TSF, PSF, PAF, PLF) were chosen very carefully based on how each factor affects the margin of error for a wide range of shots. In particular, the analyses and data in TP 3.4 - Margin of error based on distance and cut angle, TP 3.6 - Effective target sizes for slow shots into a corner pocket at different angles, and pocket "size" and "center" resource page were good starting points. However, adjustments were made based on anecdotal and empirical evidence for how tough a wide range of tables actual play. Many people provided input to guide these changes. Quite a few AZB users provided valuable input and feedback on the AZB TDF thread; and Mark Finkelstein, Mike Page, and Bob Jewett were particularly helpful in sharing their experience and judgement. Some of the factors that helped guide the adjustments include:

- On a smaller table, shot distances are generally shorter, and everything is easy to reach without a mechanical bridge; but on a larger table, there is less "traffic" with position play and balls are less likely to cluster.

- Pocket size is the most important attribute affecting pocket difficulty.

- When the pockets are very small, further tightening has a much bigger effect since the precision required will be pushing the limits for even the best players. And for big pockets, an increase might have very little effect for most shots where the precision required is well within the limits for even a mediocre player.

- For many shots, especially with a better player, a significant portion of the pocket margin is available for pocket cheating. In other words, many balls can be easily pocketed, and making the pocket smaller does more to limit pocket cheating than cause misses.

- For people who are not very accurate shot makers, both table size and pocket size make a huge difference, especially on bigger tables with "tighter" pockets. For accurate shot makers, a table size increase does not increase overall difficulty very much, especially if the pockets are not very "tight."

- Pocket facing-angles and shelf depth are more important with smaller pockets (where the pocket points will be hit more often).

- Shelf depth isn't as important as pocket size and facing angle, but it definitely has an effect.

For more rationale and justification, see "Billiard University (BU) - Part IV: Table Difficulty" (BD, November, 2013).

Regards,
Dave

Corwyn_8 said:

Thanks for responding. Unfortunately, this doesn't give me much to argue against.

Thank You Kindly.

Click to expand...

You're welcome.

If you have access to any tables, take the measurements, report the TDF(s) here, and let us know if you think the number(s) seem reasonable based on your experience.

This goes for others AZB'ers out there too.

Also, I am still hoping somebody in the Los Angeles area will post data for the really tough gambling table at Hard Times that we hear so much about. It would be interesting to see how it stacks up to other tables posted.

Regards,
Dave

Tony_in_MD said:

The table difficulty would be fluid depending upon how much money is on the light.

Click to expand...

Money (and income), along with other mental aspects, are definitely factors (... but they don't really have nothing to do with the table :grin-square.

Regards,
Dave