Pool Sharks in Vegas is Closing

DavidMNienow

Glamour Dave
Silver Member
So I came across the news in my facebook thread that Pool Sharks in Las Vegas is apparently closing at the end of December. Kinda depressing. Its the one pool room that I have played at the most during all my many trips to Vegas during the last 20+ years. I met Lou Butera there when he owned and was able to chat with him for a bit and get an autograph from him. Its like a Vegas landmark. Never thought it would disappear, but it will soon vanish into the heaven of lost pool rooms. Never to be visited again, but always remembered.
 

Chicagoplayer

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Say it isn't so!

So I came across the news in my facebook thread that Pool Sharks in Las Vegas is apparently closing at the end of December. Kinda depressing. Its the one pool room that I have played at the most during all my many trips to Vegas during the last 20+ years. I met Lou Butera there when he owned and was able to chat with him for a bit and get an autograph from him. Its like a Vegas landmark. Never thought it would disappear, but it will soon vanish into the heaven of lost pool rooms. Never to be visited again, but always remembered.

NOOOOOOOO!!

I'm going to be ill....
 

jwh1942

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
very sad statement on the state of pool in U.S. When this happens near where so many pool tournaments are held all I can say is omg.
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When will the industry learn that bar leagues are killing the sport.

This is an interesting take? All I've ever heard from struggling pool hall owners is that the APA nights save their week. So are you saying that leagues out of bars should not be allowed, so as to keep the business flow through the pool halls? That seems logical.


I'm interested in your point of view on this.
 

Teacherman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ever see a golf course inside a bar? Where do you go if you want to play golf?

Ever see a bowling alley inside a bar? Where do you go if you want to bowl?

Ever see a tennis court inside a bar? Where do you go if you want to play tennis?

Golf courses have bars. Tennis clubs have bars. Bowling alleys have bars. But no bars have golf courses / tennis cts / bowlingalleys.

Therefore.....you have businesses whose main product is their sport. Yes, they sell alcohol to their customers also but it is secondary....even if it adds up to large number. The customer spends money ON THE SPORT.....THE SPORT....is the attraction. The sport itself generates revenue.....which can be used to promote the sport further....to develop the talent....which leads to pro tours being worthy endeavors.

A pool table is found in almost every bar in the country. All it takes is a space of 250sq ft or so. It is used to sell alcohol. Many times it is given away free.....to sell alcohol. Few bar owners have any interest in the sport. They use the sport to sell alcohol.

Therefore.....every bar in the country takes business from the pool room owner.....most of whom are into the sport....(or they wouldn't own one)....most of whom invest in the sport, buy their own equipment, run tournaments, develop talent.....promote the sport. Yes, many sell alcohol also. But their product is....their interest is.....the sport.

You have bars with pool tables.....and you have pool rooms with bars. Bars with pool tables attract a power drinker.....someone who goes there to drink and might play pool. And some of them get organized into league teams.....which....the sport would benefit if these teams were in a pool room where the real rules were known, etiquette learned, and the game taken care of. Pool rooms attract people who go there to play pool and might have a drink. The pool room owner is interested in the sport but his revenue stream is limited by the bar owner.....therefore little money can be invested back into the sport.....it's tough enough to just meet his nut.

That's the financial end.

What bars with pool tables do to the game in terms of image, drunks fighting, ridiculous league rules, etc....is another story.

Not until there is a National Billiard Room Only association with a Billiard Room Only league....will the sport grow into what it is capable of.
 
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Fast Lenny

Faster Than You...
Silver Member
I had some good times and memories there, big action and interesting people. Maybe someone will try and clean the place up and make it a nice play to go. Lets be real besides the pit there it didn't have much going for it. The place has seen better days and perhaps someone will buy it and renovate it but I wouldn't count on it but hopefully because it would be sad to see it disappear forever.
 

Teacherman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The most hurtful thing that happened to pool is the APA.

Don't get snowed by their numbers. The APA and other bar leagues....are the main groups responsible for pool's status.

Don't believe me? Go to a league event that attracts several teams. What do you see?

I'll tell you what you see.....you see the exact reason why your neighbor will leave home with his golf bag over his shoulder but never with his pool cue.
 

rhatten

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hopefully with their closing it'll make room for a better location with better equipment... (table maintenance is a key to keeping players interested in supporting a pool business).

Vegas has lost a couple of pool rooms over the last 2-3 years. Looks like a big player like Diamond could open a training center (room) there since they host/support most of the major events in that 'neck of the woods'. Maybe a joint venture with a Mark Griffin 'type' would be attractive... everything out there is corp'ed these days. Other than that it looks like pool's dying 'on the vine' in Vegas... In the mean time, get your pool fix over at Good Timez.

Randy
 

cueenvy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is this the room in Vegas with a lot of gang activity? I heard about one room there that it was best to steer clear of.

APA definitely has cut the number of players aspiring to play big table pool. Haven't had 3 new guys make A level in 5 years here. Why bother when they can just fire away on a Valley and become an APA5.

Once the room caters to the league guys, the big table events and tournaments dry up. You are left with watered down, Aside /B side, alternate break, handicapped nonsense. You see it everywhere except a few pockets where big table pool is supported, mostly in larger cities.
 

pooljockey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Was in vegas about 3 months back no surprise that pool sharks going out of buisness stopped there to play weekly tournament told I wasn't allowed to play cause nobody new me I said its vegas how many people walk in on a weekly basis nobody here nows do they all get turned away I was rudely told if I didn't like it leave so I did went to Ted G place good timez bye far the players pool hall in vegas now thanks Ted for your hospitality and smoke free facility
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
Ever see a golf course inside a bar? Where do you go if you want to play golf?

Ever see a bowling alley inside a bar? Where do you go if you want to bowl?

Ever see a tennis court inside a bar? Where do you go if you want to play tennis?

Golf courses have bars. Tennis clubs have bars. Bowling alleys have bars. But no bars have golf courses / tennis cts / bowlingalleys.

Therefore.....you have businesses whose main product is their sport. Yes, they sell alcohol to their customers also but it is secondary....even if it adds up to large number. The customer spends money ON THE SPORT.....THE SPORT....is the attraction. The sport itself generates revenue.....which can be used to promote the sport further....to develop the talent....which leads to pro tours being worthy endeavors.

A pool table is found in almost every bar in the country. All it takes is a space of 250sq ft or so. It is used to sell alcohol. Many times it is given away free.....to sell alcohol. Few bar owners have any interest in the sport. They use the sport to sell alcohol.

Therefore.....every bar in the country takes business from the pool room owner.....most of whom are into the sport....(or they wouldn't own one)....most of whom invest in the sport, buy their own equipment, run tournaments, develop talent.....promote the sport. Yes, many sell alcohol also. But their product is....their interest is.....the sport.

You have bars with pool tables.....and you have pool rooms with bars. Bars with pool tables attract a power drinker.....someone who goes there to drink and might play pool. And some of them get organized into league teams.....which....the sport would benefit if these teams were in a pool room where the real rules were known, etiquette learned, and the game taken care of. Pool rooms attract people who go there to play pool and might have a drink. The pool room owner is interested in the sport but his revenue stream is limited by the bar owner.....therefore little money can be invested back into the sport.....it's tough enough to just meet his nut.

That's the financial end.

What bars with pool tables do to the game in terms of image, drunks fighting, ridiculous league rules, etc....is another story.

Not until there is a National Billiard Room Only association with a Billiard Room Only league....will the sport grow into what it is capable of.

I've been to a bars with sand volleyball pits. Volleyball doesn't seem to be suffering because of it, I believe it's still an Olympic sport and played at just about every level of education.
I know it's your opinion, and you're very steadfast in your belief, but I think you're wrong. The bar leagues provide an avenue for exposure. Maybe only one or two players per team, or less, even become fans or aspire to become better players an might invest somehow in the sport, but if you didn't have that exposure you wouldn't even have those one or two fans. Pool has a very small fan base here and I don't think you want to shut down an avenue of potential people that may develop an interest in the sport. I think if you didn't have bar leagues for all practical purposes pool would be even closer to being just a memory. When that happens you will find pool tables only in a few bars because the pool halls all will have closed
 

DavidMNienow

Glamour Dave
Silver Member
Ever see a golf course inside a bar? Where do you go if you want to play golf?

Ever see a bowling alley inside a bar? Where do you go if you want to bowl?

Ever see a tennis court inside a bar? Where do you go if you want to play tennis?

Golf courses have bars. Tennis clubs have bars. Bowling alleys have bars. But no bars have golf courses / tennis cts / bowlingalleys.

Therefore.....you have businesses whose main product is their sport. Yes, they sell alcohol to their customers also but it is secondary....even if it adds up to large number. The customer spends money ON THE SPORT.....THE SPORT....is the attraction. The sport itself generates revenue.....which can be used to promote the sport further....to develop the talent....which leads to pro tours being worthy endeavors.

A pool table is found in almost every bar in the country. All it takes is a space of 250sq ft or so. It is used to sell alcohol. Many times it is given away free.....to sell alcohol. Few bar owners have any interest in the sport. They use the sport to sell alcohol.

Therefore.....every bar in the country takes business from the pool room owner.....most of whom are into the sport....(or they wouldn't own one)....most of whom invest in the sport, buy their own equipment, run tournaments, develop talent.....promote the sport. Yes, many sell alcohol also. But their product is....their interest is.....the sport.

You have bars with pool tables.....and you have pool rooms with bars. Bars with pool tables attract a power drinker.....someone who goes there to drink and might play pool. And some of them get organized into league teams.....which....the sport would benefit if these teams were in a pool room where the real rules were known, etiquette learned, and the game taken care of. Pool rooms attract people who go there to play pool and might have a drink. The pool room owner is interested in the sport but his revenue stream is limited by the bar owner.....therefore little money can be invested back into the sport.....it's tough enough to just meet his nut.

That's the financial end.

What bars with pool tables do to the game in terms of image, drunks fighting, ridiculous league rules, etc....is another story.

Not until there is a National Billiard Room Only association with a Billiard Room Only league....will the sport grow into what it is capable of.

Overall, I agree with nearly all your points made about the differences in the situation between the pool room, and the bar. In all my years of playing, I would have to say that nearly all the weekly tournaments I have played in have been in a bar setting, rather than a pool room setting. Just for the fact that in my area there has only been 1 real pool room consistently available to play in. And the rest of the pool action has taken place in multiple bars in my area.

For a few years my area had a second pool room opened and operated by the owners of the pro shop I worked for. When the owner looked at opening the pool room they initially wanted to open it for families, but in Oregon the liquor laws prevented it. Because under Oregon law, if you open a restaurant that serves alcohol you can allow children to come into the facility. But the moment that restaurant installs a single pool table into their facility they can no longer allow children. Its an adults only situation at that point. All because of the pool table. Like somehow the presence of the pool table is a danger to the children and the families that come into to enjoy some fine food and drink. Now that makes no sense to me, but its the way it is in Oregon until someone would choose to fight the regulation and get it changed.

A quality pool room will by its nature be invariably larger than any common bar. The pool room owner has in their situation the ability to deliver a higher quality level of playing competition for the competitive pool player. Due to the quality of the offered equipment, quality of maintenance, quality of customer care. But historically the pool room owner expects to just develop a major customer base with minimal advertising & marketing of their room with only minimal amount of events taking place. Expecting that the average pool player will just somehow find their way into the pool room and stay there.

It seems to me that with all the other entertainment options existing in the modern world, the pool room owner needs to expand their ideas of how to go about growing their business and customer base way beyond what they have done before.

Awhile back I was reading an article about a snooker club in ireland that had closed down a few years ago, and a new owner was getting ready to reopen the club. And this was a members based club. And when the club was originally in business they had 6000 monthly paying members. The new owner said he hoped to get to 4000 monthly paying members in the first year. Can you imagine having 4000 or more montly paying members to a pool room. If you were a pool room owner and you had 4000 monthly members paying you say $40 a month to come in and enjoy your playing facility for multiple free hours of pool time every day would you consider that a successful operation?. It seems to me having 160K a month in membership income ought to be enough to pay the lights, basic expenses and few employee wages. Add food income, and lottery income, and equipment income, and any other income streams and you should do ok.

Membership based pool rooms seems to be the norm in europe. So why cant the american pool room owner take a page from the european pool room owner playbook and apply here it in the good ol USA. Americans already pay a monthy membership to have access to the gyms that they go to.

If a pool room owner hired a membership manager, and offered monthly recurring memberships for individuals and families, and organized nightly leagues centered around industries common to their area, and promoted to those businesses then it seems to me that you could build your customer base pretty good.
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Well folks, every pool room in Vegas is for sale. Cue Club, Mickey's, Pool Sharks, even Good Timez for the right price. It's all about the video poker not the pool.

Pooljockey, used to travel to Tempe, Arizona on business in the late 90's and early 2000's. Used to stop by the area pool rooms. No one would play me once they knew I was from New York. Needed to have an Arizona ranking before I could play. Don't blame Thumbs for not allowing you to play. He's just protecting the locals. No different than your home room would do for you.

Lyn
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
The bar leagues provide an avenue for exposure.
Yes, bar leagues are a farm system for pool, if pool room owners work it that way. They need to sponsor teams and host matches and tournaments, and some of those casual bar players will become pool customers. I see it happen at my local room. League play not only makes up a significant part of the week's income, but also advertises the place to potential new customers.

pj
chgo
 

Teacherman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Overall, I agree with nearly all your points made about the differences in the situation between the pool room, and the bar. In all my years of playing, I would have to say that nearly all the weekly tournaments I have played in have been in a bar setting, rather than a pool room setting. Just for the fact that in my area there has only been 1 real pool room consistently available to play in. And the rest of the pool action has taken place in multiple bars in my area.

For a few years my area had a second pool room opened and operated by the owners of the pro shop I worked for. When the owner looked at opening the pool room they initially wanted to open it for families, but in Oregon the liquor laws prevented it. Because under Oregon law, if you open a restaurant that serves alcohol you can allow children to come into the facility. But the moment that restaurant installs a single pool table into their facility they can no longer allow children. Its an adults only situation at that point. All because of the pool table. Like somehow the presence of the pool table is a danger to the children and the families that come into to enjoy some fine food and drink. Now that makes no sense to me, but its the way it is in Oregon until someone would choose to fight the regulation and get it changed.

A quality pool room will by its nature be invariably larger than any common bar. The pool room owner has in their situation the ability to deliver a higher quality level of playing competition for the competitive pool player. Due to the quality of the offered equipment, quality of maintenance, quality of customer care. But historically the pool room owner expects to just develop a major customer base with minimal advertising & marketing of their room with only minimal amount of events taking place. Expecting that the average pool player will just somehow find their way into the pool room and stay there.

It seems to me that with all the other entertainment options existing in the modern world, the pool room owner needs to expand their ideas of how to go about growing their business and customer base way beyond what they have done before.

Awhile back I was reading an article about a snooker club in ireland that had closed down a few years ago, and a new owner was getting ready to reopen the club. And this was a members based club. And when the club was originally in business they had 6000 monthly paying members. The new owner said he hoped to get to 4000 monthly paying members in the first year. Can you imagine having 4000 or more montly paying members to a pool room. If you were a pool room owner and you had 4000 monthly members paying you say $40 a month to come in and enjoy your playing facility for multiple free hours of pool time every day would you consider that a successful operation?. It seems to me having 160K a month in membership income ought to be enough to pay the lights, basic expenses and few employee wages. Add food income, and lottery income, and equipment income, and any other income streams and you should do ok.

Membership based pool rooms seems to be the norm in europe. So why cant the american pool room owner take a page from the european pool room owner playbook and apply here it in the good ol USA. Americans already pay a monthy membership to have access to the gyms that they go to.

If a pool room owner hired a membership manager, and offered monthly recurring memberships for individuals and families, and organized nightly leagues centered around industries common to their area, and promoted to those businesses then it seems to me that you could build your customer base pretty good.

I appreciate your comments but you must realize 4000 monthly memberships....is simply wishful thinking. I Would bet big money that there isn't a room in the country that could get to 500. If there's one I'll bet there isn't two.
 

Teacherman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Bar leagues as a farm system for pool"....sorry but that is poppeycock.

Being the big fish in the small pond, with a sadbagged handicap, is exactly what bar fly wants. Finding out he can't beat anyone in the pool room causes him to remain a bar fly. He won't travel. Causes the pool business to be fragmented. Causes low revenue for the pool industry. Causes lack of reinvestment in the sport. Causes lack of youth programs. Causes no pro tour. Causes few to pursue the game.

Quite true

Quite a viscious cycle.
 

Teacherman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bar owners learn what a Tue night pool league team or two can do for their slow night. Bars all across town learn the same thing. So.....they give the pool away free.....give the first drink free. Pay their league fees.....all for that bar tab. To get the team to play in their place. And the game goes right down the shit ter They only have a 2000 sq ft nut. Makes financial sense to them.

Ruins the sport....as follows...

Free means it has no value
Computer generated handicaps are never accurate
Managing your handicap is more important than improvement.
League owners make HUGE profits. Reinvest little to nothing.

Tell me....why isn't there an APA funded professional tour?

Because they have no interest in what is right for the sport.

It isn't because they lack money

Will the Billiard Rooms ever unite and take our sport back?
 
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