Old Timers Playing with High Deflection Shafts

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BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just had a thought.....I know....I know that's scary.

It's really amazing what some of the old time players were able to accomplish using really high deflection shafts and some people are still using them to this day.

To think that some guys were able to train themselves to pocket a ball when they were aligned way off to the side of the object ball is amazing. I remember years ago seeing an overhead shot of Bustamante playing and thinking that he was going to miss even hitting the object ball by 6 inches. He had to adjust that much for squirt, of course at that time I didn't understand how squirt worked so this looked impossible to me. This would have been around the mid 90's.

I just can't help but scratch my head when I consider that these players were able to learn to adjust for major amounts of squirt but yet so many players apparently have a hard time even aiming for a center ball shot.

It seems like adjusting for swerve and squirt is infinitely more difficult than finding the ghost ball location. If humans are capable of learning to adjust for such variables as major squirt why do you think it is that so many players have such a hard time simply locating the cue ball's target for a basic center ball shot?
 
M

MiscueBlues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Either not having shot enough shots to see the right ghost ball spot, or a stroke that's sending tr cue ball somewhere other then where they want it.

At least that's what I blame when I miss...

Just a couple more tens of thousands of practice shots and my problems will be solved ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ralph Kramden

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
When I first heard of LD shafts I thought they were another sales ploy, like the new golf club shafts.
If you read old golf magazines, with new driver distances of 5 more yards... every year since 1960...
you'd have to hit the ball backwards, after hitting drives on every par 4 hole shorter than 400 yards.

I've tried a few cues with LD shafts but I didn't care for any of them. I like to deflect a lot of my shots.
Guess I'm just an old school player.
 
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measureman

measureman

AzB Silver Member
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Ralph Kramden said:
When I first heard of LD shafts I thought they were another sales ploy, like the new golf club shafts.
If you read old golf magazines, with new driver distances of 5 more yards... every year since 1960...
you'd have to hit the ball backwards, after hitting drives on every par 4 hole shorter than 400 yards.

I've tried a few cues with LD shafts but I didn't care for any of them. I like to deflect a lot of my shots.
Guess I'm just an old school player.
Click to expand...

I have watched the old golf shows and remember one of the champions of the '60s hitting a drive and the announcer said "He hit a massive drive of 275 yards" Thats with the old balls and wooden headed drivers. With today's equipment an old guy like me can hit it 275 or better with ease.
The old timers played pretty good with standard shafts because that's all they had. Would they have played better with LD shafts? Who knows.
I have been playing so long with a standard shaft I have no interest in changing.
But when I played golf I did upgrade my equipment several times because there was absolute proof to me that as advances were made the ball would go a little farther and in golf that's the holy grail.
assuming you can hit the golf ball fairly straight.
 
Ralph Kramden

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
measureman said:
With today's equipment an old guy like me can hit it 275 or better with ease.
Click to expand...

You must really whack a golf ball. The average drive on the PGA tour in 2014 is 287.5 yards. They'll sometimes hit it further...
but I'll bet it's not with ease. In 1963 Jack Nicklas won the PGA long drive contest at 314 yards 17 in with a persimmon wood.
Of course if your from Denver the air is a little thinner. :) ..Again... IMO
 
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measureman

measureman

AzB Silver Member
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Ralph Kramden said:
You must really whack a golf ball. The average drive on the PGA tour in 2014 is 287.5 yards. They'll sometimes hit it further...
but I'll bet it's not with ease. In 1963 Jack Nicklas won the PGA long drive contest at 314 yards 17 in with a persimmon wood.
Of course if your from Denver the air is a little thinner. :) ..Again... IMO
Click to expand...

the air being thinner here adds about 10 % or more. My longest drive is 315 yards and my sons longest is 344. I've golfed with a number of people and 275 to 325 is not uncommon at this altitude.
 
CaptainDidactic

CaptainDidactic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm new to posting so I hope I get this right. That being said, I have been a LD guy since I started 10 years ago. I currently shoot with a Z 2 shaft. I recently had the opportunity to shoot with a turned down maple shaft and was quite surprised at how little it deflected. Back hand english worked great too since the pivot point happen to match my bridge length. So, did the old timers turn down their shafts making them lower deflection?
 
M

Mitchxout

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CaptainDidactic said:
I'm new to posting so I hope I get this right. That being said, I have been a LD guy since I started 10 years ago. I currently shoot with a Z 2 shaft. I recently had the opportunity to shoot with a turned down maple shaft and was quite surprised at how little it deflected. Back hand english worked great too since the pivot point happen to match my bridge length. So, did the old timers turn down their shafts making them lower deflection?
Click to expand...

Alot did but not many really knew what they were doing. The results were there, though.
 
classiccues

classiccues

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Mitchxout said:
Alot did but not many really knew what they were doing. The results were there, though.
Click to expand...

As someone that has handled a few cues used by past champions they did not go turning down their shafts. In fact the smallest shaft I ever received on a champions cue (pocket billiards player) was probably no less than 12.7mm.

If there was ANYTHING to this they would have fed the info back to the cuemakers and there would have been a cataclysmic shift in stock shaft diameters, the standard since forever, has been 13mm, as it is today in standard shafts. Remember the cuemakers of that time relied heavily on the feedback of the CHAMPIONS that played with their cues. Ivory ferrules were also the norm,

The fact is the record of 526 was done with a RAMBOW on slow cloth.

JV
 
measureman

measureman

AzB Silver Member
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classiccues said:
As someone that has handled a few cues used by past champions they did not go turning down their shafts. In fact the smallest shaft I ever received on a champions cue (pocket billiards player) was probably no less than 12.7mm.

If there was ANYTHING to this they would have fed the info back to the cuemakers and there would have been a cataclysmic shift in stock shaft diameters, the standard since forever, has been 13mm, as it is today in standard shafts. Remember the cuemakers of that time relied heavily on the feedback of the CHAMPIONS that played with their cues. Ivory ferrules were also the norm,

The fact is the record of 526 was done with a RAMBOW on slow cloth.

JV
Click to expand...
How could that have been done with a standard maple shaft,single layer tip and no fancy chalk ? the slow cloth was standard for the time.
 
CaptainDidactic

CaptainDidactic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had the privilege of playing with an old timer that played with an original Balabushka that he special order from the cue maker himself. His shaft appeared to be turned down to about 12mm. He was a road player that had a lot of interesting stories and for some reason I believed him. The way he valued his cue, I would be surprised to hear he later had it turned down.

I am also wondering if this would be a good way to tune your cue to your comfortable bridge length and pivot point.
 
CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
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Deflection should be used to gain an advantage, not avoided.

Meucci cues had very low deflection over 20 years ago.

My shafts deflect like they're LD, but they're simply taken down to 12 mm....I alter tip size depending on the size of the table and sometimes humidity. Deflection should be used to gain an advantage, not avoided. 'The Game is the Teacher'


BasementDweller said:
I just had a thought.....I know....I know that's scary.

It's really amazing what some of the old time players were able to accomplish using really high deflection shafts and some people are still using them to this day.

To think that some guys were able to train themselves to pocket a ball when they were aligned way off to the side of the object ball is amazing. I remember years ago seeing an overhead shot of Bustamante playing and thinking that he was going to miss even hitting the object ball by 6 inches. He had to adjust that much for squirt, of course at that time I didn't understand how squirt worked so this looked impossible to me. This would have been around the mid 90's.

I just can't help but scratch my head when I consider that these players were able to learn to adjust for major amounts of squirt but yet so many players apparently have a hard time even aiming for a center ball shot.

It seems like adjusting for swerve and squirt is infinitely more difficult than finding the ghost ball location. If humans are capable of learning to adjust for such variables as major squirt why do you think it is that so many players have such a hard time simply locating the cue ball's target for a basic center ball shot?
Click to expand...
 
classiccues

classiccues

Don't hashtag your broke friends
Silver Member
measureman said:
How could that have been done with a standard maple shaft,single layer tip and no fancy chalk ? the slow cloth was standard for the time.
Click to expand...

Obviously Willie must have been really lucky that the cueball didn't deflect and his chalk must have been made with magical fairy dust.

JV
 
Rackemep

Rackemep

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have never been able to get used to a LD shaft...I tried a 314 and a Z2 on my Schon and hated both of them. I also tried an OB-1 on my current cue they all had kind of a "tinny " hit (especially compared to the big heavy ivory ferrules on my current cue) ...I had no problem pocketing balls with the LD shafts and I could play shape just fine but there were several things that I like about my "high deflection " shafts in comparison 1. If I get stuck straight in on a ball I can create an angle (using deflection) to get out of the jam. 2. I tend to jump with my playing cue and I couldn't get the LD shafts to jump and 3. The hit of my original shaft has always felt more solid than any of the LD shafts that I've tried. As far as aiming gos I would think it'd be easier for a beginner to learn to aim when spinning the ball but all in all your brain will eventually adjust for deflection even if you don't realize it....I was unconsciously adjusting for deflection before I ever knew what deflection was...the human brain is an amazing thing!
 
L

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CaptainDidactic said:
I'm new to posting so I hope I get this right. That being said, I have been a LD guy since I started 10 years ago. I currently shoot with a Z 2 shaft. I recently had the opportunity to shoot with a turned down maple shaft and was quite surprised at how little it deflected. Back hand english worked great too since the pivot point happen to match my bridge length. So, did the old timers turn down their shafts making them lower deflection?
Click to expand...

Oscar Dominguez and his father used turned down shafts but now use the Z2....similar hit.
 
B

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rackemep said:
I have never been able to get used to a LD shaft...I tried a 314 and a Z2 on my Schon and hated both of them. I also tried an OB-1 on my current cue they all had kind of a "tinny " hit (especially compared to the big heavy ivory ferrules on my current cue) ...I had no problem pocketing balls with the LD shafts and I could play shape just fine but there were several things that I like about my "high deflection " shafts in comparison 1. If I get stuck straight in on a ball I can create an angle (using deflection) to get out of the jam. 2. I tend to jump with my playing cue and I couldn't get the LD shafts to jump and 3. The hit of my original shaft has always felt more solid than any of the LD shafts that I've tried. As far as aiming gos I would think it'd be easier for a beginner to learn to aim when spinning the ball but all in all your brain will eventually adjust for deflection even if you don't realize it....I was unconsciously adjusting for deflection before I ever knew what deflection was...the human brain is an amazing thing!
Click to expand...

This is sort of what I was getting at.

The brains ability to adjust for deflection after a while is really amazing. There seems to be a nearly limitless number of squirt & swerve combinations that after a while you are just able to account for on a subconsious level. Playing with a high deflection shaft makes this even more impressive to me.
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
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#1 Willie's run was on a 4x8 with HUGE pockets. Willie probably had very few shots in that run that weren't hangers for him.

#2. Lots of old timers would mark their shafts so that they were always oriented the same way. They understood what squirt/deflection was and did minimize it using what was available to them.

#3. Just because players of yesteryear did things with the equipment of their day doesn't mean that they wouldn't have appreciated having better equipment.

#4. If the equipment today is so bad in comparison then top players would never use it. They would revolt even if paid. Now just as then manufacturers often rely on top player feedback when creating their products.

#5. Maybe Mosconi could have run 2000 balls with a Predator/OB/Etc.. you will never know because he didn't have one.
 
Tony_in_MD

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
John Schmidt talked very candidly about this on a Tar video, not to long ago. I also got a chance to talk to him about this last year, when he was in my area for a little golf vacation with a friend of his.

Switching to a low squirt shaft did not affect him much in straight pool, but when it came to rotation games, which required hitting the ball harder, and using more spin he said he was basically a non factor for about 10 months, and it was the worst he played in his life.

Some can make the transition others can't. I suspect this can be true for players like Mosconi and Lassiter in their prime.
 
Cuemaster98

Cuemaster98

AzB Silver Member
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I think you may not understand his playing style. The overhead shot show Bustamante using his aiming system where he aim at the bottom right or left of the cue ball but on his last stroke he usually hit center ball. Is a very cool playing style where the system allow him to find his aim line during the warm up stroke and the execute the shot with a parallel line of aim.

As for LD shafts...anyone tried to test a LD shaft with a high quality shaft from custom cue builder like SW, Bender, etc. I like the hit, sound and feel of these shafts from custom builder than any LD that I've tried.


BasementDweller said:
I just had a thought.....I know....I know that's scary.

It's really amazing what some of the old time players were able to accomplish using really high deflection shafts and some people are still using them to this day.

To think that some guys were able to train themselves to pocket a ball when they were aligned way off to the side of the object ball is amazing. I remember years ago seeing an overhead shot of Bustamante playing and thinking that he was going to miss even hitting the object ball by 6 inches. He had to adjust that much for squirt, of course at that time I didn't understand how squirt worked so this looked impossible to me. This would have been around the mid 90's.

I just can't help but scratch my head when I consider that these players were able to learn to adjust for major amounts of squirt but yet so many players apparently have a hard time even aiming for a center ball shot.

It seems like adjusting for swerve and squirt is infinitely more difficult than finding the ghost ball location. If humans are capable of learning to adjust for such variables as major squirt why do you think it is that so many players have such a hard time simply locating the cue ball's target for a basic center ball shot?
Click to expand...
 
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