Tips of english or stroke?

Bambu

Bambu

Dave Manasseri
Silver Member
Mikjary said:
Bambu,

You did good. :wink:

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...


Thanks Mike, interesting post. I think it all boils down to cue speed. The quicker your cue speed, the less you need to stray from center to get a similar result. To me its alot like bat speed in baseball, power means very little without speed. Thats how I see experienced players as being able to do more, with less.
 
M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To exagerate an angle with draw coming off a rail, I've jacked up slightly before with an average draw stroke. I get a tiny bit of air and come off the rail farther. It's a lot tougher with left or right spin.

Best,
Mike
 
3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
cleary said:
Pool is a tough game but man... people want to make it much harder.
Click to expand...
I agree. Read my off topic post on 3C but learning and discovering is what makes these games the one of the best games there is. I'll admit and maybe you will too, there are some things about this game that are counter intuitive. This post is adressing one of those possibilities.
 
3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JoeyA said:
When I am not on auto-pilot, I use tips of English measured in 1/8ths of an inch, with a max of 3/8" at a time.

Joe Villalpondo's (www.pooliq.net) videos details how you can obtain shape using his proportions of English. I'm not sure if both of them detail that or not. you can always give him a call to find out.
Click to expand...

Joe is why I'm on this like White on Rice. Excuse me for my massive involvement here but a simple comment.

Joe put me on to paying attention to this, like no other..
There's been several Excellent Others. But nothing like Little Joe.

Thank You
 
M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Another point I was going to make about Parica's stroke in the video is his back hand movement. He addresses the cue like Efren, with his elbow in towards his body and his hand in line with his shoulder. This gives the impression of a wrist curled in towards his body. Instead, I look at it as a way for the hand to hang down into the shot line.

The stroke is more than just a wrist flick. It also employs a quick hand movement like a snatch or closing of the fist. It is slight and is done loosely so as not to move the cue off of the shooting line. A short bridge is all that is needed because the wrist movent back and forth can add six inches or so to the stroke.

An additional benefit of this stroke is the shorter arm swing needed to generate a lot of spin. Therefore less movement is a simpler movement. Not as much to worry about, only the wrist and hand area to control. Your stroke is shortened without sacrificing power.

This stroke is used by many pros. Look closely at their back hands when they have to dab the rock. Not all use it, but you will be surprised how many do and how quick it is. Probably some don't even know they do it. Before you throw your hands up in disgust at this craziness, especially the purists who have seen it all :grin:, check it out on the next video. It's actually old news. You just never got the memo. :wink:

I aslo wanted to discuss another purpose for this thread. It concerns using a cross stroke when cueing for spin. How many of you do this? And don't worry, a lot of players do. Most don't even realize it. Ever watch Larry Nevel bring it? I don't use it that much, but I have a few friends that do and hum the cue ball with it.

Think about it...cueing on one side and swiping across to the other side of the cue ball for big spin. You start only a tip off center on one side and end up only a tip off center on the other side of the cue ball. That sounds like staying close to center for extreme english to me. A lot less miscues, too. I could be talking out of the wrong orifice here as has been pointed out before, but these are some things I was getting to before the magical stroke sidebar happened. The player that showed the stroke to me is not helping me out here and posting, so I'll give it up.

Best,
Mike

BTW, If you're not going to help me out here, at least get off your nitty ass and you and Terry can make some money. It's tough action for him, but you're the player. I know you're reading this.
 
L

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mikjary said:
Another point I was going to make about Parica's stroke in the video is his back hand movement. He addresses the cue like Efren, with his elbow in towards his body and his hand in line with his shoulder. This gives the impression of a wrist curled in towards his body. Instead, I look at it as a way for the hand to hang down into the shot line.

The stroke is more than just a wrist flick. It also employs a quick hand movement like a snatch or closing of the fist. It is slight and is done loosely so as not to move the cue off of the shooting line. A short bridge is all that is needed because the wrist movent back and forth can add six inches or so to the stroke.

I concur. A wrist flick can be a limp one :wink: so a forceful snap is/was called for.

An additional benefit of this stroke is the shorter arm swing needed to generate a lot of spin. Therefore less movement is a simpler movement. Not as much to worry about, only the wrist and hand area to control. Your stroke is shortened without sacrificing power.

This stroke is used by many pros. Look closely at their back hands when they have to dab the rock. Not all use it, but you will be surprised how many do and how quick it is. Probably some don't even know they do it. Before you throw your hands up in disgust at this craziness, especially the purists who have seen it all :grin:, check it out on the next video. It's actually old news. You just never got the memo. :wink:

I aslo wanted to discuss another purpose for this thread. It concerns using a cross stroke when cueing for spin. How many of you do this? And don't worry, a lot of players do. Most don't even realize it. Ever watch Larry Nevel bring it? I don't use it that much, but I have a few friends that do and hum the cue ball with it.

A loose stroke that allows the cue tip to contact the CB and move away so as not to kill the effect that a rigid stroke would.

Think about it...cueing on one side and swiping across to the other side of the cue ball for big spin. You start only a tip off center on one side and end up only a tip off center on the other side of the cue ball. That sounds like staying close to center for extreme english to me. A lot less miscues, too. I could be talking out of the wrong orifice here as has been pointed out before, but these are some things I was getting to before the magical stroke sidebar happened. The player that showed the stroke to me is not helping me out here and posting, so I'll give it up.

Best,
Mike

BTW, If you're not going to help me out here, at least get off your nitty ass and you and Terry can make some money. It's tough action for him, but you're the player. I know you're reading this.
Click to expand...

Mike,
You are covering alot of points here that require slow reading or rereading. :wink::thumbup:
 
Last edited:
L

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mikjary said:
This video of Parica shows the same stroke with draw. IMO, he should have used a conventional draw stroke instead, to let the cue ball deflect and come off of the rail before it drew back. He would have created a bigger angle and gotten better position.

He knew it as soon as he stroked it. Watch his reaction. Instead of flaming this stroke, why don't we discuss it. This is the stroke I was shown and it is a great tool for your game. If not, I'll let it go and we can go back to our comfort zones and common sense.

Thanks, Tom for the comments.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

I went to the poolhall for the first ime in weeks and tried Parica's draw shot. I used low left draw and when the CB hit the short rail nearest me, the CB spun to my right clearing the 9 ball with great shape on the 8.

The left english on the draw was the difference. The left english threw the OB into the pocket so that the CB could be drawn back without hitting the left rail too early.
 
M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So you're ready to play Parica? At least somebody got something out of all this double talk and magical stroking. :thumbup: Low left, eh?

Nobody reading this cues across the cue ball for spin? I was hoping to get a few responses about their technique.

Best,
Mike
 
T

tom mcgonagle

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mike, I cue across the cue-ball.

Only when I'm asking the cue-ball to do more than one thing.

Ex. high-right, low-left.

Technique is hard to explain. I just tilt my cue in that direction.
 
M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
tom mcgonagle said:
Mike, I cue across the cue-ball.

Only when I'm asking the cue-ball to do more than one thing.

Ex. high-right, low-left.

Technique is hard to explain. I just tilt my cue in that direction.
Click to expand...

Tom,

If I follow your last post correctly, you cue from high right to get low left?

Best,
Mike
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Mikjary said:
So you're ready to play Parica? At least somebody got something out of all this double talk and magical stroking. :thumbup: Low left, eh?

Nobody reading this cues across the cue ball for spin? I was hoping to get a few responses about their technique.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

I talked to Johnny Archer yesterday at length about aiming and english. He does not come across the ball. He gets into position with his bridge already set for the english he wants to use. I might elaborate more later.

FWIW I played around with swiping across the ball the other day and it appears that it does work to increase the spin. I can definitely see where it can be very useful in certain situations. I think that to actually play this way all the time would require quite a bit of time to be comfortable and consistent with it, but then what doesn't require that?
 
M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JB Cases said:
I talked to Johnny Archer yesterday at length about aiming and english. He does not come across the ball. He gets into position with his bridge already set for the english he wants to use. I might elaborate more later.

FWIW I played around with swiping across the ball the other day and it appears that it does work to increase the spin. I can definitely see where it can be very useful in certain situations. I think that to actually play this way all the time would require quite a bit of time to be comfortable and consistent with it, but then what doesn't require that?
Click to expand...

It's interesting that you mention Johnny Archer. I've watched a lot of his stroke on video and he definitely looked like he lined up at the cue ball on the same side as the spin (left for left, etc.). I'm glad to get the verification firsthand.

I think it is an advantage for players familiar with pivoting, BHE and other unorthodox :wink: movements to learn these techniques or at least experiment with them. I picked them up a little faster because of my non-traditional training. I only use it sparingly, but the more I do, the luckier I get.

Best,
Mike
 
L

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mikjary said:
So you're ready to play Parica? At least somebody got something out of all this double talk and magical stroking. :thumbup: Low left, eh?

Nobody reading this cues across the cue ball for spin? I was hoping to get a few responses about their technique.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

I am lucky that I don't have to play Parica for $$, and Parica doesn't have to play for the $$ either. His wife has a business and property enough that they are well off. His wife tried to get him to manage the business, but he failed and she told him to go back and shoot pool. :wink:

You know about low left on that shot and what happens when you can draw back to the short rail.:wink:
 
Q

quadrary

Custom Leather Cue Cases
Silver Member
tom mcgonagle said:
I guess I should apologize to all the people I've beaten over the years. "Sorry I wasn't playing the right way and I still won."

Don't take this remark serious.

Like I said, "I know what works for me and it's way to late for me to change."
Click to expand...

i love the wheel analogy but something is missing. If you take your finger and push it at the outside edge and move your finger at a set speed it will spin at one speed if you move your finger in close to the axle and move your finger at the same speed although it will take more force because you have less leverage but if do move your pushing finger at the same speed you will generate a faster spin. The same principle as the geering on a ten speed bicycle on the smaller sprockest you have to push harder but if you move the pedals at the same speed you go much faster.
 
cookie man

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JB Cases said:
I talked to Johnny Archer yesterday at length about aiming and english. He does not come across the ball. He gets into position with his bridge already set for the english he wants to use. I might elaborate more later.

FWIW I played around with swiping across the ball the other day and it appears that it does work to increase the spin. I can definitely see where it can be very useful in certain situations. I think that to actually play this way all the time would require quite a bit of time to be comfortable and consistent with it, but then what doesn't require that?
Click to expand...

Johnny is known to not give much info. away.
 
cookie man

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mikjary said:
So you're ready to play Parica? At least somebody got something out of all this double talk and magical stroking. :thumbup: Low left, eh?

Nobody reading this cues across the cue ball for spin? I was hoping to get a few responses about their technique.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

I am learning this technique more and more. Chris Bartram has said on AZ that he lines up left for right hand english.
 
T

tom mcgonagle

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No Mike.

Those are two places I hit across the cue ball to get the proper results. Any time I'm asking more than one thing from the cue-ball, I hit across it.

Low right, middle right, high right, Low left, middle left, and high left are all places I hit across the cue-ball.
 
M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
cookie man said:
I am learning this technique more and more. Chris Bartram has said on AZ that he lines up left for right hand english.
Click to expand...

I've watched it for many years. As I mentioned, Larry Nevel uses it for his impressive dabbing. I will try to find some video to support this for all the would be flamers and lurkers. :wink:

JB's analogy versus Tom's analogy are not really different opinions, but instead complement each other. John's idea of developing torque came from personal experience as a diver who achieved the upper levels of ability. Tom came up with the wheel spinning idea, to emphasize using less movement by turning it from the center rather than the edge.

They are both right and are part of the same process. John's idea of torque being the greatest as his arms move in closer to the body as he spins is similar to what they do in ice skating, dancing, the baseball swing, etc. There is an initial movement that starts the wheel spinning. Once it begins, one can move in to the center and much more easily turn the wheel. All part of the same process.

When you move a refrigerator you don't just walk up with one arm and start to roll it. You get your back and legs into it and after it begins to roll you use your arms. This is the idea of cueing closer to center ball and developing the torque with your stroke. Your initial movements are the warmup strokes and developing torque. As you finish by hitting the cue ball, your stroke will dictate the amount of spin and apply the torque you've developed.

Watch Pujols coil and prepare his body to release his power. He's not doing a large movement, but he is keeping all his potential power centrally located. The body core is much more powerful than the arms/edges of the cue ball. The crossover stroke adds some additonal torque, if you can visualize it that way.

Best,
Mike
 
M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
tom mcgonagle said:
No Mike.

Those are two places I hit across the cue ball to get the proper results. Any time I'm asking more than one thing from the cue-ball, I hit across it.

Low right, middle right, high right, Low left, middle left, and high left are all places I hit across the cue-ball.
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks for that info. How often do you use this technique? Every spin shot or only when you need bigger spin?

Another question is do you follow through straight or does your cue tip move off in the direction of the english slightly? I was talking with a pro friend about this and he said his stick mainly comes through straight. Occasionally it will veer off with the spin.

We figured out he is probably aligning to use spin like Archer does. That is he is set up to cue on the same side as the spin. He moves over to the other side of the cue ball, but because he is lined up for the opposite side spin he finishes mostly straight through the cue ball.

Best,
Mike
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top