Squirt. End Mass and Cue Flexibility.

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
Take just the shaft of your cue and bring it up to the cue ball. Slowly, very slowly and gently. Just barely touch the cue ball without moving it. Gradually press harder against the stationary ball. Watch how much compression you get of the tip before the ball moves. Estimate how many pounds of force you had to apply before the cue ball budged. Report your results.

lol thanks bob
<-captain obvious reporting for duty

Did you say 1 ounce?
Who shoots that slow? We are talking about shooting pool where we have the speed of the cue in play and not push shots.

Be well and be real

What's real?

lol true
a marshmallow will compress before the cue ball moves, but I think just about any amount of compression of the average tip at any speed would move the ball first/simultaneously.

I have no actual science to offer as proof, sorry. Just marshmallows.
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lol thanks bob
<-captain obvious reporting for duty



lol true
a marshmallow will compress before the cue ball moves, but I think just about any amount of compression of the average tip at any speed would move the ball first/simultaneously.

I have no actual science to offer as proof, sorry. Just marshmallows.

Since we digress (marshmallows), I scruffed up my elk master tip real good so that the some of the fibers were standing up (like hairs on my back) and would hold chalk. I then touched the CB without moving it and the chalk was tamped down along with the standing hairs - just a little bit.:)

But who really cares about this push shot?

Be well.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Socrates said...

“Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss people.”

“understanding a question is half an answer”

“Education is the kindling of a flame, not the filling of a vessel.”

“I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only make them think”

“Wonder is the beginning of wisdom. "

“True wisdom comes to each of us when we realize how little we understand about life, ourselves, and the world around us.”

“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”

- See more at: http://www.viralalternativenews.com...uotes-will-make-you.html#sthash.R7fmeYdf.dpuf

-----------------------------
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are several high speed pics of the cue tip being compressed against a CB but the CB does not move instantaneously but. eventually when the tip is compressed enough, the CB starts to roll or move forward.

To counter this visual, it was proffered than one should touch the CB with the tip very slowly until the CB starts to rotate forward (won't slide on the cloth) in this case and to measure how much the tip compressed - immeasurable. What does this prove?

Here is a comparable example that without equations illustrates why this was not a fair comparison:

"Weights on Strings
Large weights are each suspended by a single strand of breakable string. A strand of this string is also attached to the bottom of each weight. The weights are not attached to each other in any way. Students are asked which string will break first: the one above the weights, or the one below, when the strings below the weights are pulled. Which one actually breaks depends on how the string is pulled. If the string is pulled very fast, the string below the weight breaks first every time, while if the string is pulled slowly, it breaks above the weight every time. This is because of the inertia of the weights. A quick pull does not give the weight a chance to move. In order for the string above the weight to get tighter, the weight must move down a bit. If the pull is fast enough, it gets much tighter below the weight than above, and that is where it will break. If the string is pulled slowly, it gets tighter above the weight, for the weight does have a chance to move, and the string above has to support the weight and resist the tug."
.
http://www2.cose.isu.edu/~shropshi/fmdesc.htm

Hitting the CB with speed to impact and overcome its mass (inertia) to send it forward or even slide is different than slowly pushing on it where the mass of the CB is born by the slate.

Inertia defined by Wiki.:)

Newton actually attributed the term "inertia" to mean "the innate force possessed by an object which resists changes in motion"; thus Newton defined "inertia" to mean the cause of the phenomenon, rather than the phenomenon itself. However, Newton's original ideas of "innate resistive force" were ultimately problematic for a variety of reasons, and thus most physicists no longer think in these terms. As no alternate mechanism has been readily accepted, and it is now generally accepted that there may not be one which we can know, the term "inertia" has come to mean simply the phenomenon itself, rather than any inherent mechanism. Thus, ultimately, "inertia" in modern classical physics has come to be a name for the same phenomenon described by Newton's First Law of Motion, and the two concepts are now considered to be equivalent:confused:

Be well
 
Last edited:

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Back on point.
Assume that a shaft has a diameter of .50" and a low deflection shaft has a .30 diameter drilled hole.

The bridge is 12" behind the CB and the butt of the cue is held by the bridge hand.

The mass/weight of a CB is 6 ounces or .375 pounds.

That this would be similar to a cantilever beam or like a diving board.

That hitting the CB at it's center to send it forward a bit over the cloth one needs to overcome that .375 pounds and at the edge of the CB close to zero pounds.

That to get a transverse deflection distance by hitting the CB near 1/4 outside of center or around 45 degrees the mass needed to be overcome to move the CB is less than .375 pounds and greater than zero, one can calculate that transverse deflection.
beam 1.PNG

beam 2.PNG


Link to play around with.
http://www.botlanta.org/converters/dale-calc/bending.html

The effective mass of the front of the cue has a small amount attributable to the added flexibility that the hole contributes and more to the loss of the weight of wood due to the hole.

Be well
 
Last edited:

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
E,

Would it be correct to say that the the drilling of hole BOTH reduces the mass AND increases the flex?

If so, would drilling the hole for the entire length of the rod further increase the flex?

Is that not why the I2 shafts by McDermott yield less squirt that their G-Core shafts?

The I2 shafts are drilled for the 'entire' length while the G-Core shafts are only drilled for the first 9 inches or so.

They both have carbon fiber tubes inserted into the length of the holes.

Thanks in advance & You Stay Well,
Rick
 

Corwyn_8

Energy Curmudgeon
Silver Member
That hitting the CB at it's center to send it forward a bit over the cloth one needs to overcome that .375 pounds and at the edge of the CB close to zero pounds.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Hitting in the center, you only need to give the ball translational velocity, while hitting near the edge you need to give the ball the SAME translational velocity, plus some rotational velocity. To get it to move the same distance requires MORE force for near the edge, than for center.

[This leaves aside the wrong idea that moving the cue ball requires force greater than the weight of the cue ball, if that is what you are saying. Go push a car.]

Thank you kindly.
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This doesn't make any sense to me. Hitting in the center, you only need to give the ball translational velocity, while hitting near the edge you need to give the ball the SAME translational velocity, plus some rotational velocity. To get it to move the same distance requires MORE force for near the edge, than for center.

[This leaves aside the wrong idea that moving the cue ball requires force greater than the weight of the cue ball, if that is what you are saying. Go push a car.]

Thank you kindly.

OK, I'll play, It's harder to push drag on the front VW log than by it's side door - it rotates.:)

vwball.jpg
 
Last edited:

jsp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This doesn't make any sense to me. Hitting in the center, you only need to give the ball translational velocity, while hitting near the edge you need to give the ball the SAME translational velocity, plus some rotational velocity. To get it to move the same distance requires MORE force for near the edge, than for center.
What exactly do you mean by "move the same distance"? If you mean the CB will roll the same distance after the force is removed, then it can be argued that you need LESS force near the edge compared to the center. It's a bit counter-intuitive, and this puzzled me before as well.
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This leaves aside the wrong idea that moving the cue ball requires force greater than the weight of the cue ball, if that is what you are saying. Go push a car.

'Xactly.

My Dad told me that during the war he used to make a proposition bet that he could move his destroyer out from its mooring dock by pushing on it. He said it took about 15 minutes, but he never lost a bet. I'm not sure what his ship weighed, but it must have displaced at least 2500 tons, or about 2000 times heavier than a car. The acceleration rate must have been exceedingly low, but since the force was steady, there was always acceleration taking place... even if it was not detectable to a human observer.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... That hitting the CB at it's center to send it forward a bit over the cloth one needs to overcome that .375 pounds and at the edge of the CB close to zero pounds. ...
This sentence makes no sense as far as the physics of the situation goes. Maybe you need to rephrase it.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
'Xactly.

My Dad told me that during the war he used to make a proposition bet that he could move his destroyer out from its mooring dock by pushing on it. He said it took about 15 minutes, but he never lost a bet. I'm not sure what his ship weighed, but it must have displaced at least 2500 tons, or about 2000 times heavier than a car. The acceleration rate must have been exceedingly low, but since the force was steady, there was always acceleration taking place... even if it was not detectable to a human observer.
Or, he had the tide tables.:groucho:
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just went down to the table with a bamboo chopstick to see if I could use it to propel a CB. I made sure I only tossed it at the ball to eliminate any effect from the mass of my hand and arm. Best I could get was about 1/4" (after numerous attempts), but the 6 oz. CB did react to the impulse delivered by a 6 gram chopstick (which was about 1/28th of the mass of the CB). I'm sure I could generate a much larger force if I could put a good stroke on it, but the tiny chopstick is pretty hard to throw hard with a stroking motion. Some sort of chalked tip might have made it a bit easier, because it mostly just ricocheted off the surface due to lack of friction on the mostly off-center hits..

Interestingly, I also tried to "grip it and rip it" with the chopstick held firmly in my hand, and was able to achieve over two table lengths of CB travel. This had almost nothing to do with transferring momentum from the "cue", and was a pretty good demonstration of what can be accomplished when the hand is not decoupled from the cue during contact. I'd guess that the contact time was also a lot longer than it is with an 18oz. cue, suggesting to me that contact time may be a bit longer (and more possibility of the arm influencing the shot) with lighter cues than it is with heavy ones.
 

Jal

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What exactly do you mean by "move the same distance"? If you mean the CB will roll the same distance after the force is removed, then it can be argued that you need LESS force near the edge compared to the center. It's a bit counter-intuitive, and this puzzled me before as well.
Hi jsp,

Do you mean less force because of a longer contact time? If so, I agree....but it does require more cue speed (energy) to get the same distance, yes?

Good to see you're still around!

Jim
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
For all these years, It has been held here that only end mass determines squirt and when I proffered that I thought that the flexing or bending of the shaft is also an important component, I and others were dismissed. One need not be a scientist to have good intuition and conscious reasoning, but here one is dissed unless he has a pedigree above that of a pool player.

I just found this old paper from 2006 that I had not been pointed to before here on AZ Billiards Forum since I joined 2003. I wonder but will not ask why?


Cue and ball deflection (or “squirt”) in billiards
Rod cross
Physics Department of Sydney, Sydney NSW 2006, Australia

VII Conclusion

....The experimental data shows that elasticity of the cue tip plays a dominant role in the collision process and suggests that cues with thin shafts might generate lower squirt angles as a result of their greater flexibility rather than their lower mass...

Acknowledgements
This article was inspired by previous theoretical efforts by Ray Higley and by Professors David Alciatore and Ron Shepard, concerning the origin of squirt in billiards,

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/PUBLICATIONS/39. squirt.pdf

This scientist could also be wrong even with an overhead camera and accelerometers etc,.

Be well

Just a reminder as to the original topic of the thread.
 

jsp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do you mean less force because of a longer contact time? If so, I agree....but it does require more cue speed (energy) to get the same distance, yes?
Yes. You explained it rather well in this thread, about 8 or so years ago. The post that I was replying to reminded of that thread.

Good to see you're still around!
Ditto. Nowadays I tend to stay away from these physics-related threads, especially if you're involved. Over the years you have proven to be one of the main authority figures here on AZ concerning physics knowledge, so I know I won't be able to answer questions as well as you (if I know the answer at all). Not to mention my memory of classical mechanics has been deteriorating over the years, hehe.
 

Corwyn_8

Energy Curmudgeon
Silver Member
What exactly do you mean by "move the same distance"? If you mean the CB will roll the same distance after the force is removed, then it can be argued that you need LESS force near the edge compared to the center. It's a bit counter-intuitive, and this puzzled me before as well.

Please argue it then. (I am not sure what you are saying).

[In the thread linked to later, the energy is the same, but that alone won't tell you how far it will roll.]

Thank you kindly.
 

Corwyn_8

Energy Curmudgeon
Silver Member
I just went down to the table with a bamboo chopstick to see if I could use it to propel a CB. I made sure I only tossed it at the ball to eliminate any effect from the mass of my hand and arm. Best I could get was about 1/4" (after numerous attempts), but the 6 oz. CB did react to the impulse delivered by a 6 gram chopstick (which was about 1/28th of the mass of the CB). I'm sure I could generate a much larger force if I could put a good stroke on it, but the tiny chopstick is pretty hard to throw hard with a stroking motion. Some sort of chalked tip might have made it a bit easier, because it mostly just ricocheted off the surface due to lack of friction on the mostly off-center hits..


Interestingly, I also tried to "grip it and rip it" with the chopstick held firmly in my hand, and was able to achieve over two table lengths of CB travel. This had almost nothing to do with transferring momentum from the "cue", and was a pretty good demonstration of what can be accomplished when the hand is not decoupled from the cue during contact. I'd guess that the contact time was also a lot longer than it is with an 18oz. cue, suggesting to me that contact time may be a bit longer (and more possibility of the arm influencing the shot) with lighter cues than it is with heavy ones.

Can someone PLEASE make a chop stick into a cue, with points (drawn on is fine) and a tiny leather tip?!!?!?

Thank you kindly.

ETA: These are the closest I could find.
 
Last edited:

Jal

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes. You explained it rather well in this thread, about 8 or so years ago. The post that I was replying to reminded of that thread.
Thank you for the kind words, jsp, but it's me that's impressed with your memory. Wow!

..Nowadays I tend to stay away from these physics-related threads....
I hope you reconsider. I think most if not all of us welcome your help and input. (For instance, your suggestion/assertion that less force is required...).

Jim
 
Top