Now I'm certain The Hustler is a fiction

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Fastolfe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm just back from a business trip and it's my day off, so I decided to go all the way to forget work. I proposed my straight pool buddy to play a race to 1000 and he was game, so we started playing at 2pm and finished at 1am. I'm busted, my back and my knees hurt, and I can see pool balls dancing before my eyes as I'm typing this.

The first 300 points went reasonably quickly and enjoyably, and then it became a grind. We both lost our stroke big time, we missed hangers right and left, we started playing unlikely shots and safeties that leave the perfect shot to the opponent, etc... The brain goes into overload. It's just too much pool in one go. It took a real effort to achieve any sort of run. But we kept at it because we were interested to see what technique(s) would work to get our mind out of the gutter and get back in stroke.

Anyhow, long story short, I lost 866/1000, and I've learned that there's no way Eddie Felson could have played Minnesota Fats for 24 hours straight. Or maybe Eddie could, but certainly not Fats :)
 
Bobby

Bobby

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fastolfe said:
I'm just back from a business trip and it's my day off, so I decided to go all the way to forget work. I proposed my straight pool buddy to play a race to 1000 and he was game, so we started playing at 2pm and finished at 1am. I'm busted, my back and my knees hurt, and I can see pool balls dancing before my eyes as I'm typing this.

The first 300 points went reasonably quickly and enjoyably, and then it became a grind. We both lost our stroke big time, we missed hangers right and left, we started playing unlikely shots and safeties that leave the perfect shot to the opponent, etc... The brain goes into overload. It's just too much pool in one go. It took a real effort to achieve any sort of run. But we kept at it because we were interested to see what technique(s) would work to get our mind out of the gutter and get back in stroke.

Anyhow, long story short, I lost 866/1000, and I've learned that there's no way Eddie Felson could have played Minnesota Fats for 24 hours straight. Or maybe Eddie could, but certainly not Fats :)
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What's the most points you've ever played to before this? I've found that once I'm used to playing these types of matches it becomes natural. I used to play 300 and 500 point matches with a friend all the time, finally we decided on a 1000 point match and it wasn't that bad, the next time we did 1000 it was even easier.
 
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Fastolfe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bobby said:
What's the most points you've ever played to before this? I've found that once I'm used to playing these types of matches it becomes natural. I used to play 300 and 500 point matches with a friend all the time, finally we decided on a 1000 point match and it wasn't that bad, the next time we did 1000 it was even easier.
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Usually we play a dozen games of 8-ball, then a game of straight pool to 150 points. On good days, we play two. Beyond 3, I start to get tired of it, not so much physically as mentally: my mind wanders off, I look at the room, at the television on the wall, and I'm just not in the game anymore. Hard though I try to focus, I can feel part my brain got bored and simply wants to do something else.
 
dmgwalsh

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
Fastolfe said:
Usually we play a dozen games of 8-ball, then a game of straight pool to 150 points. On good days, we play two. Beyond 3, I start to get tired of it, not so much physically as mentally: my mind wanders off, I look at the room, at the television on the wall, and I'm just not in the game anymore. Hard though I try to focus, I can feel part my brain got bored and simply wants to do something else.
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Just my 2 cents.

Sometimes on the weekend I'd play Ed Latimer Straight Pool and I think the most we would ever play was 5 games to 100. I'd be getting a little tired toward the end, too.

But then I am 58 and Ed is about 67.
 
sausage

sausage

Banned
i remember talking to mcchesney in dallas one day. i was remarking about dick lane's amazing 14.1 play. john said to me: "yeah, but he gets to practice 8 hours a day", to which i replied; " i don't know anyone who can practice that much." he didn't reply.... then recently i read an article about dick on the web. he had just gotten done playing several long sets of various games endinig with session of 9ball. he was asked about his stamina and he said; "i love the game so much, i could have played some more." .... being able to go the distance and beyond is part of the natural ability equation which separates the good players from the great players. i don't know if one can learn mental stamina.
 
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Fastolfe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
dmgwalsh said:
I'd be getting a little tired toward the end, too. But then I am 58 and Ed is about 67.
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Damn, I'm only 36... That's not good :D

sausage said:
being able to go the distance and beyond is part of the natural ability equation which separates the good players from the great players. i don't know if one can learn mental stamina.
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I never need to play for more than 3 hours at a time for league matches, so I don't feel the need to go the distance. This said, when I have time, I do try to play beyond my limit: usually I take 5/10 minutes to warm up, then I can play 3 hours with a certain consistency, then my performances drop all of the sudden and I have trouble getting out of the rut. It bothers me, so I try to figure out how to keep my game together when it happens.

I use many tricks that all seem to help my game when I'm in the gutter. I can even end up playing somewhat well if I concentrate on these tricks, but I don't feel like I'm playing "naturally", like I do when I'm still fresh. That's what bothers me.

Oh well, I guess I'll never be a great player, but that I knew already :)
 
D

Dave Nelson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm 83 and I'm good for about 4 hours, then I'm pretty tired physically. My game doesn't require much mental energy.

Dave Nelson
 
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Fastolfe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dave Nelson said:
I'm 83 and I'm good for about 4 hours, then I'm pretty tired physically. My game doesn't require much mental energy
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Wow, 83 and in good health is great! I don't think I'll reach that age, nobody in my family ever did by a wide margin. Good for you man...

I can last a good number of hours if I play no-brainers like 8-ball, if I take a break every hour or so, but most importantly, if I haven't played for a few days before. Since I play 1 to 2 hours every single day of the week, I find the accumulation a bit much if I want to stretch a session further. If I plan on playing a lot in one go, I take a rest away from pool for 2 days or 3 days. If I haven't planned and I end up busted like yesterday, I won't play the day after.

As for mental energy, I've never found any cue game particularly challenging, but when the minimum of concentration required takes a hike, I have to work to get it back. Come to think of it, I wonder if ADD meds would help... :)
 
9

9BallJim

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Long races and long sessions

When a friend comes by to shot, we'll usually start off with a race-100 in 14.1 and I'll spot him 25. It's a pretty close match. It usually takes about an hour and a half. Then we'll switch to 9-ball; usually races-5. We might play anywhere from 5 or 6 races on up to 10 or more. Our sessions typically run from 9 PM till as late (or early) as 6 or 7 AM. I'm pretty drained afterwords, but I think it's good for endurance. Especially to prepare yourself for the situation when you lose your first match in a double elimination tournament with a big field and your playing match after match for several hours.

As for long races in 14.1 I've never played anyone past 150. However, a couple months ago, I played two nights back-to-back and raced (by myself) to 500 balls each night. Each race took me about 5 hours. It didn't even seem that long when I was playing.
 
sausage

sausage

Banned
i remember listening to a couple of pool hall junkies discussing a 9ball match over at this dudes home. the guy with the table said, "OK, but you have to play me all night". obviously he felt that he had the endurance upper hand. it comes into "play" more often than we realize. it's really no different than a boxing match to 12 rounds. in fact the greatest heavyweight of all time, jack johnson, finally lost to a youngster who didn't out box him but outlasted him. Johnson like Ali, took this opponent lightly. stamina is king. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FJack_Johnson_(boxer)&ei=ZHBrS5H8GJPCsQPElpymAw&usg=AFQjCNFA_5fAtjhmM35h1LtxJlOsxGJJCQ
 
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pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fastolfe said:
I'm just back from a business trip and it's my day off, so I decided to go all the way to forget work. I proposed my straight pool buddy to play a race to 1000 and he was game, so we started playing at 2pm and finished at 1am. I'm busted, my back and my knees hurt, and I can see pool balls dancing before my eyes as I'm typing this.

The first 300 points went reasonably quickly and enjoyably, and then it became a grind. We both lost our stroke big time, we missed hangers right and left, we started playing unlikely shots and safeties that leave the perfect shot to the opponent, etc... The brain goes into overload. It's just too much pool in one go. It took a real effort to achieve any sort of run. But we kept at it because we were interested to see what technique(s) would work to get our mind out of the gutter and get back in stroke.

Anyhow, long story short, I lost 866/1000, and I've learned that there's no way Eddie Felson could have played Minnesota Fats for 24 hours straight. Or maybe Eddie could, but certainly not Fats :)
Click to expand...

Perhaps not Rudolf Wanderone, but the hustlers often played till
the cows came home.

Joey Spaeth, Gary's dad, told me of a match he played against Clem Metz, 'The best
One Pocket player you never heard of...'

It would have been in the late 50s or early 60s - they played for
a quick 32 hours. Joey certainly would not have used any chemicals.

They played One Pocket which IMHO - would be much harder than
14.1. No resting in the chair while the other guy runs 100.
in 1P you hardly ever even have time to sit down.

Dale

ps: for any of you who knew Joey or saw him play, when I tell
this story, I usually add '...and Clem won - 5 games to 2' :)
 
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Fastolfe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
pdcue said:
Perhaps not Rudolf Wanderone, but the hustlers often played till the cows came home.
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Wanderone was no more Minnesota Fats than I'm the queen of England. But I digress...

Still, be it Wanderone or Jackie Gleason, at their age and with their weight, I very much doubt they could have stayed on their feet for 24 hours without a great deal of physical discomfort. And I should know, I have bad knees and I used to weigh a lot more than I do now. Fat people rarely reach 50 without knee problems, and knee pains can ruin your day in a hurry, trust me on that one.
 
alphadog

alphadog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
that is funny as hell! thanks for the laugh. Of course I am referrng to the 32 hrs=5 to 2 !
 
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Mr441

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sausage said:
i remember listening to a couple of pool hall junkies discussing a 9ball match over at this dudes home. the guy with the table said, "OK, but you have to play me all night". obviously he felt that he had the endurance upper hand. it comes into "play" more often than we realize. it's really no different than a boxing match to 12 rounds. in fact the greatest heavyweight of all time, jack johnson, finally lost to a youngster who didn't out box him but outlasted him. Johnson like Ali, took this opponent lightly. stamina is king. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FJack_Johnson_(boxer)&ei=ZHBrS5H8GJPCsQPElpymAw&usg=AFQjCNFA_5fAtjhmM35h1LtxJlOsxGJJCQ
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Wasn't the fight that Jack Johnson lost to Jess Willard fixed? Johnson agreed to stay standing for 25 rounds before going down.
 
sausage

sausage

Banned
Mr441 said:
Wasn't the fight that Jack Johnson lost to Jess Willard fixed? Johnson agreed to stay standing for 25 rounds before going down.
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with pro boxing that's a real possibility especially after watching that joke of a fight between foreman and moorer. but johnson was so out of shape that merely walking around the ring for 25 rounds would have put him on the canvas. the PBS series, The Greatest Fighter You Never Knew, makes no mention of a fix but instead claims that johnson after outboxing The Great White Dope, was running out of gas because willard just wasn't going down. my guess is that because willard could take a punch, his youth gave him the stamina to wear down johnson. also, IMHO, unlike foreman, johnson had to much pride to agree to a fix.
 
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pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fastolfe said:
Wanderone was no more Minnesota Fats than I'm the queen of England. But I digress...

Still, be it Wanderone or Jackie Gleason, at their age and with their weight, I very much doubt they could have stayed on their feet for 24 hours without a great deal of physical discomfort. And I should know, I have bad knees and I used to weigh a lot more than I do now. Fat people rarely reach 50 without knee problems, and knee pains can ruin your day in a hurry, trust me on that one.
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OK, you do know it was a book, right?
The story was written about two fictional characters. Eddie was young,
the character in the book behaved like someone in his mid 20s, much
younger than the 35-ish Paul N in the movie.
Fats, who had nothing to do with Gleason, we only know was older,
and much wiser, but how much older is not made clear. IMHO - 40 or so.

BTW - Fats, the real, as in 'New York Fats', Dan McGorty's opinion
nonwithstanding, was indeed a top player. He was a top One Pocket
player, a very good Bank Pool player, and quite respectable at 3 Cushion.
Even at his prime, long before 1962, there were probably at least 100
players who could have beat him at 14.1, maybe 1000 playing Nine Ball.

Dale
 
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Fastolfe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
pdcue said:
OK, you do know it was a book, right?
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Yes, but I was referring to the movie, and the actual actors who played in it.

pdcue said:
BTW - Fats, the real, as in 'New York Fats',
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Rudolf "New York Fats" Wanderone was a great player, and a fantastic character. But he was not the inspiration for the fictional Minnesota Fats character. Many media outfits bought the story though... He tried to boost his reputation by making that claim, and that was a bit of a cheap trick. Strange even, considering he was an interesting enough person in his own right, and didn't really need to ride on the movie's success to make a name for himself.
 
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pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fastolfe said:
Yes, but I was referring to the movie, and the actual actors who played in it.



Rudolf "New York Fats" Wanderone was a great player, and a fantastic character. But he was not the inspiration for the fictional Minnesota Fats character. Many media outfits bought the story though... He tried to boost his reputation by making that claim, and that was a bit of a cheap trick. Strange even, considering he was an interesting enough person in his own right, and didn't really need to ride on the movie's success to make a name for himself.
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Let me see if I understand, after all I wrote, you somehow think I
didn't already know about Fats?

?????

Dale
 
cajunfats

cajunfats

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Playing for Days

Fastolfe said:
Yes, but I was referring to the movie, and the actual actors who played in it.



Rudolf "New York Fats" Wanderone was a great player, and a fantastic character. But he was not the inspiration for the fictional Minnesota Fats character. Many media outfits bought the story though... He tried to boost his reputation by making that claim, and that was a bit of a cheap trick. Strange even, considering he was an interesting enough person in his own right, and didn't really need to ride on the movie's success to make a name for himself.
Click to expand...

Back in the late 50's and early 60's,marathon matches were quite common. Especially here in the South. Billiard Rooms were small intimate places that the owner could lock up the joint and leave the sweaters there for days if necessary. Seen it in North Louisiana in a small town near Shreveport. It is possible,because these players lived to play,not to work. They ate,and slept action!! They didn't need drugs to keep em going,hell our town was dry!! Those days are gone forever,the world has changed,and that era was as real as the movie portrayed.
p.s. No comment on the Wanderone thing. I was one of the few people who called him Rudy when everybody else called him Fats.
 
sausage

sausage

Banned
The Hustler movie ended in a marathon match between fast eddie and fats. after eddie acquired some "character" he was ready to challenge fats on his own turf. the game was to continue until one player said "uncle". anyone can win a few games and declare themselves the champ of the universe but a true championship (like a Ultimate Fighting Match) is decided when the other player "taps out". finally fats says to eddie, "i can't beat you, fast eddie." fats tapped out. and that's just what eddie needed. the money at this point was incidental. well, except to eddie's slimy manager who yelled; "EDDIE, YOU OWE ME MONEY!"
 
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