Honest question for manual pivot CTE users

This question is actually for manual pivot and pro1 sweep CTE users.

After getting your visuals and then focusing on the CB, you have a CCB view, which I believe is called a "fixed" CB. Have you ever looked straight through that CCB to see where the CB would hit the OB from there, prior to any pivot or sweep?

I ask because when I pay attention to this while doing a 15° perception on two different shots (each shot having about 2ft between CB and OB) my perceived CCB is very consistent, meaning my tip is pointed through CCB and directed to the same place on the OB for each shot, regardless of where the balls are positioned on the table. Then , of course, depending on inside or outside pivot, my final CCB solution is either thicker or thinner than that initial perception.

If you don't get the same CCB point of view from using the same visuals on two shots where the distance between CB and OB is the same, and the distance between the CB and your eyes/head is the same, what exactly are you doing to produce two different shot perspectives?

I was going to just wait on Stan's book to see if this is addressed, but figured it wouldn't be in the book.

nobcitypool said:

If I understand your question correctly, if you are indeed seeing this, you're not getting your perception correctly. Or, what I think is more likely, you're not aligning correctly. One of Stan's videos covers something very similar to this.

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I'm strictly referring to my vision center -- where I have to have my head/eyes positioned in order to see both lines (like a CTE and ETA) at the same time. It's really like my peripheral vision picks the lines up because I'm not focusing on either one. Once I get that position where I have both lines, then address CCB, that is the initial point of aim for the perception. I'll call it the "perception angle" for lack of any other term. As Stan shows in several vids, from this point is when a player decides if the shot looks thin or thick, and therefore knows whether to use an outside or inside pivot.

What I'm saying is that I always get the exact same perception angle for a 15° perception, or 30° perception, at specific CB to OB distances. Like if there's 12" between the balls, and I move my body and head and eyes to pick up the 15° perception, I get a specific CCB alignment/perception angle. It doesn't matter where the two balls are positioned on the table, because this specific perception angle is always the same when the distance between the balls is 12".

Now, when the distance between the balls is 36" I get a different perception angle using those same visuals. This is because the relationship between the balls is different and I have to position my head/eyes at a different perspective in order to get the visuals and my CCB perception angle, and it's not the same angle I get when the distance between balls is only a foot. So I see how different angles are obtained from the same perception, as long as the distance between the balls has changed.

Not sure if this clarifies my question or makes it sound even more complicated. Sorry.

Ralph Kramden said:

Brian.... I line up center CB to center OB on every shot, but sometimes I aim differently on different shots.

On fractional aimed shots I align CCB thru COB all the way to the rail, and then I find my pocketing angle.
When the angle is found, I'll then aim CCB at the 1/8 fraction line for that angle (or very close to that line).
I usually aim this way on 30 degree angles or less if the OB is close to the pocket, or extremely thin cuts.

On longer shots with 25 degree or thinner angles I usually pivot. Again I aim straight thru CCB to COB for
cue alignment. I'll find the contact point distance from OB center, and then parallel shift my cue the exact
same distance, but the cue shifts toward the opposite side of the OB (shift to the inside of the cut angle)
I call this a reverse angle aim point, or RAAP... I pivot back toward CCB, looking for the OB contact point.

In both cases, I always first aim at the same spot on both the CB and OB, just to align the cue to the shot.

.

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Interesting combination of skills. I like the 1/2 ball reference.

One Pocket John said:

Alright Brian I'll give it a shot.
Note:
At Neils suggestion I put my aiming system away almost three weeks ago and have used CTE for my daily practice sessions.(about 2+ hours per day) I'm impressed.

Manual Pivoting
In Bold above.
This isn't exactly true. The fixed cue ball is determined from the standing position as determined from your visual, lets say, edge of CB to "A" and the center vertical line of the CB to the OB edge. This is how a fixed CB is established. It's established by rotating your body around the CB until these two points are seen at the same time.

Once seen, and I'm assuming your feet are already in a boxer style stance and your grip hand is on the visual apex (center) of the visual. (my grip hand always starts from the same place on my body, for me it is just to the right of my belly button.)

Now bending over as straight down on the visual as possible and placing the "V" of your bridge hand and cue on the apex (center) of the visual you will notice as you glance at where the tip of the cue is, it will not be pointing at CCB. (in this case we are shooting the OB to the left) it will be to the left of CCB. In order to shoot the shot the butt of the cue must be pulled in toward the body causing the tip of the cue to now fall on CCB. Pull back the cue and shoot.

If you place OB's across the center of the table with the QB 2 feet away and use the same visual you will notice (this has been my experience) that the distance to rotate the cue tip to center QB increases depending how severe the shot angle to the pocket.

These steps are very strict and there is no short cut or guessing.

This is how I see CTE. On shots to the right the cue butt is pushed away from the body to get to CCB.

Pretty clear huh!

John

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Ok. Thanks for the reply. But this is not how Stan shows it. He specifically says that once you are positioned to see the visuals, you drop them and focus on CCB. This is the CCB view is the perception that the visuals provide. From there you decide whether or not to place your bridge-V a 1/2 to the left or right of this initial ccb perception line, depending on if you're using an inside or outside pivot, and then pivot the tip to the final CCB solution. But if what you're doing is working, then keep it up. It's all about playing better pool.

cookie man said:

Where does he say this at?

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The two visuals provide you with a CCB perception/perspective. This ccb view is what Stan calls a fixed CB, where you have a center and two fixed edges. The perception lines are no longer being used. They get you to the fixed ccb, and from there you decide to come in a 1/2 tip left or right and then pivot to a final CCB solution. This is exactly how Stan describes it in several videos, including here, https://youtu.be/4iuvQT7dwfs

I thought I had read or heard him say to "drop" the visuals once you have a fixed center CB. But I'm not going to search a hundred videos and have hundreds of posts just to find the exact words. I should've stated that he specifically SHOWS that when you get your fixed ccb the visuals (ETA/ETC or whatever) are no longer referenced. Regardless, my point is, as Stan teaches it, the perception lines lead you to a "fixed center cue ball". From there you are no longer concerned with the visuals....it's sweep or pivot time.

One Pocket John said:

In Bold:
Stan would never say this. Attention to where the cue tip is pointed on the QB is only after he has fallen down into the shooting position as dictated by the visual. The tip will not be on CCB and must be pivoted to CCB. Attention to the OB then is no longer needed it becomes irrelevant at this point. But, like Stan says I like to look at the OB last.
Old school.

John

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I should've said he specifically "shows", not "says". And the fixed CB is not based on the CTE/ETA lines. It's based on the view of CCB from the exact perspective provided from where you must stand in order to get both visuals. A "fixed CCB", according to Stan, has nothing to do with the CTE or ETA/B/C lines, but everything to do with looking straight at CCB and having two fixed edges, a "left edge and a right edge". He says it here....Fixed center CB view

Michael S said:

What I do is start center to center. Then I slowly move right or left depending upon which side and which perception I will use. I will stop when I see both the center to edge and the proper perception line--then sweep to center cue ball... If I go any further or not enough, I will not see it. For longer or more severe cuts, I may have to look for the perception a few times until I see it.

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Ok. Good explanation. Now try this experiment: place the CB 2ft from the OB anywhere on the table and use a 15° perception. Once you get a "fixed CCB", after you find that perfect spot to see your two visuals, look straight through that CCB and visualize a line to the OB, noting exactly where it lands on the face of the OB. Now move these two balls to somewhere else on on the table, anywhere, and make sure there's 2ft between the CB and OB again. Use the 15° perception again, and when you get your fixed ccb, look straight through to the OB and note where that line hits just as before. I get the same result each time. Do you? If not, what are you doing differently to get a different result?

Now, if I move the CB closer or farther from the OB I get a different result, meaning my fixed CCB line hits somewhere else on the OB than it did from that 2ft distance. But as long as none of the distances change, and I use the exact same visual references (ETA/CTE), I get the same results.

hogie583 said:

First off. Im not convinced your getting your visuals right your seeing everything the same way. 2nd a fixed cue ball once you get THE RIGHT VISUALS THE EDGES OF THE CUE BALL SHOW CCB. 3RD A MANUAL PIVOT requires a specific Bridge length and a manual pivot then to your NEW CCB. 4th a pro1 visual sweep is totally different from a manual pivot.

Brain i really believe your just not getting your visuals right! We've been saying this for months. Your visuals will get you fixed cue ball edges from there you see center cue ball. That vertical center line is very important for manual pivot! Your shaft and bridge v will come down to the left or right of this line depending on thickening or thin the shot within the category your in A or B. When your Edge of your shaft comes down touching this vertical line along correct bridge length and V you will be looking straight down your shaft.
NOW MAKE THE PIVOT TO CCB FROM THis View. Don't move your head you'll notice Your cue will after be angled after the pivot Shoot the shot. This is just for manual pivots.

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This describes exactly how I do it, and exactly how I have described it, from the visuals to a fixed CCB, then an offset alignment and pivot to the final CCB solution. I got it. I know I'm getting the visuals correctly also, because there is only one place behind the CB where you can pick up the visuals. The only time I get identical results for the same visuals is when the distance between the CB and OB is identical. And this makes perfect sense, considering that if the distance between the two balls is the same, and I use the same visual references between the balls, my vision center/head has only one location from which I can access both visuals. It's very consistent. As long as nothing changes -- distance between the balls, my visual references, etc... -- I get the same fixed CCB perspective regardless of where the two balls are on the table.

Rails and pockets are not part of the visuals. This is why a player must choose which perception is needed for any particular shot angle. Of course, this choosing process requires a player to look at the entire shot layout, rails and pocket, in order to determine the correct perception to use. But after this determination, the only thing that matters is the CB and OB and the two visual lines that get you to that fixed center CB shot perspective. And that perspective relies on the distance between the balls. In fact, the only relevant factors for getting the fixed CB is the distance between balls and the exact visuals used between the balls. That's why I'm asking my question. What does a CTE user do differently to get a different fixed CB perspective when none of the relevant factors are different?

I understand how the perceptions and manual pivots work, which is objective because the results are easily repeatable. If you see a different fixed CCB from two identical CB-OB setups while using identical visuals for each setup, something subjective is happening, and that's the key. Because following the exact same objective procedure on both setups would produce the exact same fixed CCB perspective, objectively. If not, there is something specifically different that the player is doing to produce different results. That's what I want know.

nobcitypool said:

I can't speak for everyone else but I've studied the DVDs and YouTube videos, took lessons from Stan and Stevie and practiced a lot. I can't explain the how but I have done it more than enough to see that the claims from Stan are 100% valid.

I don't know what you're doing because I can't see through your eyes. It's obvious you have nearly zero understanding of CTE yet you persist with your questions when it is obvious you're just trolling. Keep it up, you're just providing Stan free publicity

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I follow Stan's instructions for straight in shots, using a 15-outside and a manual 1/2 tip pivot and it works. This should prove I am doing it correctly. In fact, I set up several of his example shots and can get his exact results on a few of them, even his pre-pivot perception line as seen from the fixed CB center. L On the shots where I follow the same instuctions only to miss, I assume he is tweaking like he says he does in a few videos, moving his alignment a "tick" here or there until his ccb solution matches what looks right to his eyes. I can do that too, but then that defeats the whole system-defined solution.

So can you answer my thread question? It would clear the issue right up.