Check out Ronnie O'Sullivan's eyes in this clip.
This clip is from 2007 and is well worth watching from the beginning.
This clip is from 2007 and is well worth watching from the beginning.
Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
- Thread starter gregcantrall
- Start date
Gregcantrall, this is a good read. Very informative. I'm an amateur and I've been hitting cue ball last since I started. I'm always trying to get better by watching YouTube vids, DVDs and reading everything I can on pool. Almost everything I've read or advice I've gotten from senior players with decades of experience say to look at the object ball last. It just doesn't work for me. I've tried many times. I'm glad I'm not the only one who looks at the cue ball last, I thought I was doing something wrong.
Always awesome to watch Ronnie in full flight.
He does shift his eyes during his stroke on the safety. He goes from looking at the OB to looking at the CB during the stroke.
However, every shot where he is "potting" a ball (where you can see his eyes) he is laser focused in on the OB.
FWIW, I have been doing some of this - looking at the CB last - for about a year, namely on shots with the cue ball on the rail.
Due to failing eyesight, when I shoot on 9 footers, I sometimes have to look at the CB last when the OB is far away.
It is a 100% valid method IMHO, on certain shots. I would not recommend it on all shots, but I could also see how a player could attain a high level of play if they chose this method and adopted it full time - especially if they started this way from the beginning.
MalibuMike
Banned
Thanks for this post Greg!
About a month ago I took a lesson from one of my favorite pool players, Oscar Dominguez, one of the nicest guys in pool and doesn't mind giving mediocre players like me lessons. He taught me an awesome aiming system, and helped me to let my stroke out more, Ron Rosas had me doing tons of these short punch strokes. Anyway, toward the end of the lesson Oscar asks me which ball I look at when I hit and I said the OB, I had never heard anything about hitting the CB first. At first it felt very awkward. Oscar told me I get down on my line correct, just lock that in ad concentrate on the CB. My stroke has definitely improved. As well as my CB position, it seems like I have more feel too. Although I must say on some long shots I tend to rattle the ball, but these are on Hard Times Bellflower tight pockets. And his aiming system works best when looking at the cue ball, its basically the ghost ball point, but if he is cutting the ball to the left, he lines up the left side of his tip to that GB mark and then moves his tip to just about anywhere on the Cue ball to get the needed English. It works amazing for me anyways, also looking at the cue ball last has cured some bad habits, like rushing shots or popping up, or using body English to steer the ball in...
I am much more consistent and as my stroke improves I think those long shots will come, also to follow through a little more I just do not choke up so far on my cue, its a little back from 90 degrees when I strike the ball.
My friends all said, "Oscar is goofing you dude! Nobody shoots like that!" The I asked my friend Santos who also plays at Hard Times and he told me that he also looks at the CB last. so that's good enough for me! Still I am happy to find this thread here! Thanks Greg!
About a month ago I took a lesson from one of my favorite pool players, Oscar Dominguez, one of the nicest guys in pool and doesn't mind giving mediocre players like me lessons. He taught me an awesome aiming system, and helped me to let my stroke out more, Ron Rosas had me doing tons of these short punch strokes. Anyway, toward the end of the lesson Oscar asks me which ball I look at when I hit and I said the OB, I had never heard anything about hitting the CB first. At first it felt very awkward. Oscar told me I get down on my line correct, just lock that in ad concentrate on the CB. My stroke has definitely improved. As well as my CB position, it seems like I have more feel too. Although I must say on some long shots I tend to rattle the ball, but these are on Hard Times Bellflower tight pockets. And his aiming system works best when looking at the cue ball, its basically the ghost ball point, but if he is cutting the ball to the left, he lines up the left side of his tip to that GB mark and then moves his tip to just about anywhere on the Cue ball to get the needed English. It works amazing for me anyways, also looking at the cue ball last has cured some bad habits, like rushing shots or popping up, or using body English to steer the ball in...
I am much more consistent and as my stroke improves I think those long shots will come, also to follow through a little more I just do not choke up so far on my cue, its a little back from 90 degrees when I strike the ball.
My friends all said, "Oscar is goofing you dude! Nobody shoots like that!" The I asked my friend Santos who also plays at Hard Times and he told me that he also looks at the CB last. so that's good enough for me! Still I am happy to find this thread here! Thanks Greg!
MalibuMike
Banned
I went to an all day seminar with John Schmidt at Corey Harpers Crown City Billiards
John also put on an expo in a Knight's of Columbus Benefit I did, and he looks at the cue ball last, on most shots...
I know this is 3 1/2 years later but............John Schmidt was in our area a few weeks ago and gave lessons to several people. A couple of weeks ago my wife told me that her girl friend took a lesson and John taught cue ball last. Well since this was hearsay and there is always a large factor for misunderstanding given there were 3 exchanges before it got to my ears, I did not think it proof of anything. Perhaps he just stressed the importance of aiming at the cue ball. Perhaps she misunderstood him. Perhaps my wife misunderstood her.
Last night we were at our weekly $5 eight ball tournament, when my wife drug me over to another that had taken a lesson. She says to him, "Tell him what John says." He replied, "Cue ball." I said, "Huh? You mean cue ball last?" He replied, "Oh yea".
This player had been playing cue ball last before the lesson. Last night he was shooting better than I have ever seen. He plays as a B player in BCAPL. Last night he beat a couple of higher rated players to bring down 4th place in a very strong field. I got lucky:wink: to knock him out at 4th. This speaks to the value of lessons as much as or more than the value of cue ball last though.
John also put on an expo in a Knight's of Columbus Benefit I did, and he looks at the cue ball last, on most shots...
I'm looking at the cue ball last on all most all of my shots. The cue ball is your primary target. If you don't hit the cue ball right you aren't going to hit the object ball right.
I could see this helping bad players.
I can't see this helping top players as much because they're in dead strike all the time. Their concentration would be much better spent in the ob. Even top pros though I could see this helping on the break, maybe on jacked up shots too.
I can't see this helping top players as much because they're in dead strike all the time. Their concentration would be much better spent in the ob. Even top pros though I could see this helping on the break, maybe on jacked up shots too.
MalibuMike
Banned
This really hits home for me.:thumbup:
Very similar to my experience. I have been working on my Whole Shot Routine and this sounds real close to what works best for me. I have been moving more towards snooker fundamentals and am getting real close to having my best game.(old habits do me in mostly).
You are very fortunate to have such a good coach. I hope you take full advantage of what he is offering you.:thumbup:
P.S. My wife says, "I can't believe he has Oscar Dominguez teaching him! Holy ****."
Ok might as well go ahead with my story: I have been meaning to post to this thread.
My wife and I attended the BCAPL Nationals and cashed in the Silver Scotch doubles. I won one match in the singles gold. Anyway that gave us time to catch the shuttle to Griff's. The driver told us about the app and how we would get a drink if we installed it. So I tipped her $5 for the tip. We got in and ordered food and our drinks. As soon as our food arrived someone stuck their head in the door and announced that the last shuttle of the night was leaving. HEH heh...........
No action games but T-Rex was hitting balls around and talking with several players. I had admired his skills in the one pocket match with Robo Cop. I even thought I might have caught a hint of him telegraphing with his eyebrows like John Higgins does. Could not tell though. So I went to Youtube and searched and found a video of #11 - Tony CHOHAN vs Oscar DOMINGUEZ • 2016 Hard Times 10-Ball that showed their eyes on certain shots. I could not get a read on Tony but Oscar sure looked to be looking at the cue ball last.
Where was I oh yea so anyway, Tony steps out the front door to smoke a cigarette. I followed him out and thanked him for the entertainment of watching such a terrific match. He seemed very humble and personable. So I then asked him, "When you pull the trigger, which ball are you looking at?" His imediate response was, "the ball I am shooting." Then with a tone of uncertainty. "Uh object ball." Then with authority, "Yea object ball." Kind of reminded me of Ronnie O'Sullivan's answer.
Absolute pin point accuracy in where and how you strike the cue ball is critical to playing at the top levels. That accuracy can be attained either way. Cue ball last works best for me.
Efren was asked on my behalf in a TAR interview with Shane. He said object ball and Shane agreed.
trifectasss
Registered
After playing pool for over 20 years back in the late 90s, I switched to looking at the cue ball last. I made incredible shots. Accuracy was something I never experienced before. And I stayed with it for 2 or 3 years. During that time I ran into a wall sorta speak. My game was starting to get inconsistent and I realized that all I did through all that time was replace cue ball control with accuracy. By just looking at the cue ball last, I couldn't judge speed well at all and I certainly had no feel to side english shots and especially bank and kick shots.
So I changed it up again. I did everything the same and then took one added step, keeping every other part of my body in the same position, I then looked at the point of object ball I needed to contact and had a better feel of getting to the shape I needed after pocketing the ball. Sometimes a slight adjustment can be made in adding two steps, looking back at cue and then object one more time. I feel my game is as good today as it's really ever been. Especially with side english. I can set up like I'm using no english and then start adjusting my stroke angle right or left and then by looking at object ball, do a slight adjustment on spot of object ball I need to hit to account for throw. But most of all, looking at the object ball gives me less of a tunnel vision effect and I use the added peripheral vision to help get the feel of stroke needed to get my position.
So I changed it up again. I did everything the same and then took one added step, keeping every other part of my body in the same position, I then looked at the point of object ball I needed to contact and had a better feel of getting to the shape I needed after pocketing the ball. Sometimes a slight adjustment can be made in adding two steps, looking back at cue and then object one more time. I feel my game is as good today as it's really ever been. Especially with side english. I can set up like I'm using no english and then start adjusting my stroke angle right or left and then by looking at object ball, do a slight adjustment on spot of object ball I need to hit to account for throw. But most of all, looking at the object ball gives me less of a tunnel vision effect and I use the added peripheral vision to help get the feel of stroke needed to get my position.
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It doesn't matter what you look at when you deliver the stroke!
Just ran severa racks of 9/8 ball with my eyes shut on the final backswing AND the delivery forward stroke. I've been doing this as a fundamentals check and do so regularly. I have a bit of trouble with the max power break, but the 80% power ones go well, mostly. Normal shots are the same, more or less. It does help to have the eyes open, as long as you keep them focused somewhere, but generally this is just for the times when you have made a mistake in your setup and it slipped through your preshot check, or on the break, which is a lot more complex and coordinated.
All the hard work is done before the delivery. If your fundamentals are good you can even turn your head away, and the ball will go anyway. This is more advanced than merely shutting your eyes, and is more for showing off, as there is little benefit to it. You can pull your cue out of the bridgehand as well and put it back while your head is still turned away and shoot, but this definitely has little value.
My process is as follows:
Decide tip/power/aim while standing up. Go down on the correct line,then fine tune tip position on cueball, lookin at it. One practise stroke. Stare down the aimpoint on object ball/fine tune very minutely, by that I mean very minutely adjusting the cue so it points at the aim you decided while standing up, and NOT second guessing the aimpoint! The adjustments are so small, you probably couldn't tell on camera even if you stared it down. Anything more than this, and you have to get up and start over. Final backswing and delivery, looking at object ball/aim or eyes shut. It doesn't matter a whole lot. If you can't shoot with your eyes shut, your fundamentals are S H I T. Not just shooting and making shots, but getting position as well. Some of you are probably in for a surprise if you try it.
Just ran severa racks of 9/8 ball with my eyes shut on the final backswing AND the delivery forward stroke. I've been doing this as a fundamentals check and do so regularly. I have a bit of trouble with the max power break, but the 80% power ones go well, mostly. Normal shots are the same, more or less. It does help to have the eyes open, as long as you keep them focused somewhere, but generally this is just for the times when you have made a mistake in your setup and it slipped through your preshot check, or on the break, which is a lot more complex and coordinated.
All the hard work is done before the delivery. If your fundamentals are good you can even turn your head away, and the ball will go anyway. This is more advanced than merely shutting your eyes, and is more for showing off, as there is little benefit to it. You can pull your cue out of the bridgehand as well and put it back while your head is still turned away and shoot, but this definitely has little value.
My process is as follows:
Decide tip/power/aim while standing up. Go down on the correct line,then fine tune tip position on cueball, lookin at it. One practise stroke. Stare down the aimpoint on object ball/fine tune very minutely, by that I mean very minutely adjusting the cue so it points at the aim you decided while standing up, and NOT second guessing the aimpoint! The adjustments are so small, you probably couldn't tell on camera even if you stared it down. Anything more than this, and you have to get up and start over. Final backswing and delivery, looking at object ball/aim or eyes shut. It doesn't matter a whole lot. If you can't shoot with your eyes shut, your fundamentals are S H I T. Not just shooting and making shots, but getting position as well. Some of you are probably in for a surprise if you try it.
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Just found another snooker player that telegraphs where he is looking with his eyebrows. John Higgins has exaggerated eyebrow movement that makes it easier to tell where he is looking.
Mark Allen does much the same.
All of the shots I have seen of Mark's eyes are cue ball at contact.
Mark Allen does much the same.
All of the shots I have seen of Mark's eyes are cue ball at contact.
Update
My wife and I got to watch some of the U.S. Open One Pocket.
My wife saw Oscar Dominguez hitting balls between matches. She made a bee line to him and states, "I hear you look at the cue ball last." His reply was, "Absolutely!" followed by something to the effect of, "why would I look anywhere else?"
I just watched Ronnie's most recent 147. https://youtu.be/l72omICs2jcI think a lot can be learned from studying his set up and delivery. There are some very good shots of his eyes as he is shooting. I could not guess the exact pattern but did notice they were steely cold like the predator that he is.
I saw an instructional clip he had done more recently than his previous quotes. He indicates cue ball last.
Here is a link to Stewart Bingham's 147 to tie Ronnie for the prize money.https://youtu.be/At8APJslf2o
I like to compare the similarities in the set up and delivery..
My wife and I got to watch some of the U.S. Open One Pocket.
My wife saw Oscar Dominguez hitting balls between matches. She made a bee line to him and states, "I hear you look at the cue ball last." His reply was, "Absolutely!" followed by something to the effect of, "why would I look anywhere else?"
I just watched Ronnie's most recent 147. https://youtu.be/l72omICs2jcI think a lot can be learned from studying his set up and delivery. There are some very good shots of his eyes as he is shooting. I could not guess the exact pattern but did notice they were steely cold like the predator that he is.
I saw an instructional clip he had done more recently than his previous quotes. He indicates cue ball last.
Here is a link to Stewart Bingham's 147 to tie Ronnie for the prize money.https://youtu.be/At8APJslf2o
I like to compare the similarities in the set up and delivery..
and oh yea
I am not as retired as I thought and am back in the Seattle area. Would be open to tips on any little tournaments.:thumbup:
I am not as retired as I thought and am back in the Seattle area. Would be open to tips on any little tournaments.
:thumbup:Just watched some of OD's MC match against Soquet. On a straight-in 9ball its clear he's looking at OB last. Lot of back-n-forth in his pre-shot but he looks at OB last. O'sullivan looks at OB last also. Same deal, eyes go back-n-forth but on final stroke he's looking at OB. I still think its like golfers telling you what they do vs. what they actually do. If you watch the Players Champ. final with RO and Murphy they both look at OB last. Plenty of head-on shots that are pretty obvious. Shot RO takes at the 28min mark he goes to-n-fro and then OB when he pulls the trigger. I'm not trying to fight ya Greg but i've watched a LOT of RO and he looks at OB last. Watch the ChineseOpen final w/ Hawkins-Selby. Again, back-n-forth and OB last.
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MalibuMike
Banned
Cue Ball LAST!
It takes awhile to switch as it feels like a leap of faith to not look at the object ball last, but looking at the cue ball last has not only improved my shape but my whole stroke is better! Sometime I get insecure on long shots and look at the Object Ball last... But is I just stick to CB last I pocket more balls as well. you just have to go back and forth between the CB and the OB until you know its going in and then just concentrate on how firm and how much backstroke and follow your tip has to move for each shot.
It takes awhile to switch as it feels like a leap of faith to not look at the object ball last, but looking at the cue ball last has not only improved my shape but my whole stroke is better! Sometime I get insecure on long shots and look at the Object Ball last... But is I just stick to CB last I pocket more balls as well. you just have to go back and forth between the CB and the OB until you know its going in and then just concentrate on how firm and how much backstroke and follow your tip has to move for each shot.
YUUP :thumbup:
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Pulling cue out, touching cue tip to the floor, returning cue to bridge, making spot shot, all while head is turned.
Done it many, many times. Actually did it a few days ago, showing it to someone who'd never heard of it before. If your body is in line and your mechanics are sound all the way through the shot, you do not need to see either the OB or the CB to make the shot. And, as pulling your cue out then returning it shows, addressing the ball properly and keeping the mechanics in place will dictate making the shot successfully, not "seeing" the shot.
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