Why?

Colin Colenso · Jan 28, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
Kim Davenport's TARGET POOL was best test for ball-pocketing and position play, not 9-Ball. I grew up playing 15 Ball Rotation and 8 Ball, these are the most challenging games imho. When the "One Foul Rules" came out it cut down on the need to be a great ball pocketer....most players just play safe when faced with a difficult shot.

Agreed. Once one's pocketing reaches a certain proficient level in 9-ball, there's little incentive / low reward, in refining it, compared to working on breaking, kicking, safety, shape play etc. Aspects that I find less enjoyable to practice, hence I've pretty much given up on 9 and 10 ball events.

Though 8 ball is pretty much a breaking competition, at least there are regular times when a player becomes committed to going out and being able to shoot a great shot here and there is important. Same goes for 2 foul.

I'm not so familiar with the rules and strategies of 15 ball rotation and how they might effect the incentive to take on harder pots.

I enjoy playing several games that are ball in hand after opponent misses, including versions that require 2 rails to be hit on each shot. These reward accurate shooting and some advanced shot making.

For the ultimate pocketing / shot making experience, I recommend 11 ball rotation on a 12' snooker table, ball in hand after opponent misses, 2 rails must be hit each shot to continue the visit, 1 point per ball. Break shot is free with BIH after break (eliminates much of the luck factor of the break). Whoever pockets the last ball gets the break.

The same game works well on any table, but the 12 footer is the ultimate challenge.

ENGLISH! · Jan 28, 2015

BeiberLvr said:
BS, Rick

CJ released his TOI DVD in late 2012/early 2013. If anyone cares to use the search function, they can see you were quick to jump on the bandwagon.

Now you yourself have said numerous times the one thing that made you think CTE wasn't objective was this VIDEO.

Which as you can see was uploaded in July 2013. More than half a year after you were already in love with TOI, and which you really didn't start referring to until a few months ago.

It's cool if you like TOI, but don't act like it was your hatred of CTE that made you start using TOI.

Like your idol so often does, you have a 'ton' of mischaracterizations there.

You seem to be like some others here that think themselves omniscient and can read others' minds.

My experiences with both CTE & TOI occurred over much time from intrigue to actual interest, to giving them a look see, to giving them a brief try, to putting them on a shelf for awhile as I was competing, etc.

Do you know what the word 'about' means? Do you know what the word 'about' means to me?

Do you know how long I might have been considering something before I ever made a post about it?

Why don't you go play Inspector Gadget or Maxwell Smart somewhere else for a good while until you gain some...

Nevermind.

And what IF my memory would not be exactly accurate as to exact timing?

Does that change the nature of CTE or TOI?

What is your your purpose?

How long did CJ talk about TOI before he released the DVD?

What year did you graduate high school?

CJ Wiley · Jan 28, 2015

playing the original rules they would HAVE to play aggressively.

Colin Colenso said:
Agreed. Once one's pocketing reaches a certain proficient level in 9-ball, there's little incentive / low reward, in refining it, compared to working on breaking, kicking, safety, shape play etc. Aspects that I find less enjoyable to practice, hence I've pretty much given up on 9 and 10 ball events.

Though 8 ball is pretty much a breaking competition, at least there are regular times when a player becomes committed to going out and being able to shoot a great shot here and there is important. Same goes for 2 foul.

I'm not so familiar with the rules and strategies of 15 ball rotation and how they might effect the incentive to take on harder pots.

I enjoy playing several games that are ball in hand after opponent misses, including versions that require 2 rails to be hit on each shot. These reward accurate shooting and some advanced shot making.

For the ultimate pocketing / shot making experience, I recommend 11 ball rotation on a 12' snooker table, ball in hand after opponent misses, 2 rails must be hit each shot to continue the visit, 1 point per ball. Break shot is free with BIH after break (eliminates much of the luck factor of the break). Whoever pockets the last ball gets the break.

The same game works well on any table, but the 12 footer is the ultimate challenge.

Also the rules make a difference. 'Two Shot Shoot Out' requires much more advanced shot making than "one foul" - this is without a doubt, players these days play safe, however, playing the original rules they would HAVE to play aggressively.

Straightpool_99 · Jan 28, 2015

Colin Colenso said:
Agreed. Once one's pocketing reaches a certain proficient level in 9-ball, there's little incentive / low reward, in refining it, compared to working on breaking, kicking, safety, shape play etc. Aspects that I find less enjoyable to practice, hence I've pretty much given up on 9 and 10 ball events.

Though 8 ball is pretty much a breaking competition, at least there are regular times when a player becomes committed to going out and being able to shoot a great shot here and there is important. Same goes for 2 foul.

Never actually played 2 foul 9 ball, other than experimenting practicing by myself. I've never seen an 8 ball tournament for pro level players that I felt would be a fair test of skill between these kinds of players. Doesn't mean that I don't think it should be played. As a tv game, the IPT got it right. 8 ball on tight, slow tables would be the ticket for Mr. Everyman to start watching pool. But on fast tables it essentially it becomes a breaking contest like you said. I don't feel those rare shots outweight this fact at all.

I'm not so familiar with the rules and strategies of 15 ball rotation and how they might effect the incentive to take on harder pots.

Well, I'm no pro, but I have played a lot of straight rotation with friends from the Phillipines, Latin america (where they play it completely differently) and my experiences are:
You need great allround skills, especially at kicking, caroming, combinations...SHots that you may never need to take in 9 ball become routine after a while. I feel that rotation is the best allround test of pool skills there is. You can't usually duck your way to a victory as easily as in 9 ball. Usually your first shot after a safe will be at least medium difficult, rarely will it be an actual hanger. No ball in hand is a huge deal. Even if your shot is somewhat difficult, rarely will you keep ducking if your shot is at least somewhat makeable, as you are not likely to get a lot better of a shot. In essence I feel you want a game where people are slamming in balls on a completely open table. I prefer the tactical nip and tuck (with great shots in between) of a crowded 9 or maybe 10 footer. I want the opportunities to be earned as an organic part of the game, and not handed to you on a sliver platter. Ball in hand anywhere on the table is one of the many modern inventions that contributed to ruin pool as a competitive game. What we have now is a sort of competitive training drill, instead of a duel of minds and abilities. You want a boxing match where the two fighters take turns punching each other without a guard and to see who passes out first. I want an actual boxing match, complete with clinches, circling each other and with the odd knockout punch out of the blue. Every punch should not be a haymaker to the jaw either..

I enjoy playing several games that are ball in hand after opponent misses, including versions that require 2 rails to be hit on each shot. These reward accurate shooting and some advanced shot making.
Ball in hand after a miss is IMHO silly and completely removes a huge part of the game, which is tactical. Why not set up spot shots instead? Besides, much of the skill factor involved in straight rotation is that you rarely ever get ball in hand. In essence you earn every shot in this game, sometimes taking shots on that you would have passed back to your opponent in any other game.

For the ultimate pocketing / shot making experience, I recommend 11 ball rotation on a 12' snooker table, ball in hand after opponent misses
I normally don't approve of BIH after miss rules, but on a tight snooker table, shooting balls in rotation it would be a must, I agree..
, 2 rails must be hit each shot to continue the visit
Why in Gods name would you have this rule. Completely remove any finesse there is?
, 1 point per ball. Break shot is free with BIH after break (eliminates much of the luck factor of the break). Whoever pockets the last ball gets the break.
These are reasonable on the snooker table, especially since you are probably a huge underdog to actually make a ball on the break (just a guess)..

The same game works well on any table, but the 12 footer is the ultimate challenge.

Apart from the 2 rail rule, which I don't feel is any good on any size table, I wouldn't like these rules on ANY OTHER than a tight snooker table. Still I would absolutely not watch it on TV. It would be like watching a marathon: Sure it is a great accomplishment, but still you are just watching a man running. In your game you would be watching to men slamming the balls in on a huge, wide open table as hard as they could in some cases. It would be plain ugly to me from an aestetical point of view, as well as boring from a tactical one. Shooting balls hard for it's own sake is not pretty or exciting! We call people who do that bangers...

BeiberLvr · Jan 28, 2015

ENGLISH! said:
Like your idol so often does, you have a 'ton' of mischaracterizations there.

You seem to be like some others here that think themselves omniscient and can read others' minds.

My experiences with both CTE & TOI occurred over much time from intrigue to actual interest, to giving them a look see, to giving them a brief try, to putting them on a shelf for awhile as I was competing, etc.

Do you know what the word 'about' means? Do you know what the word 'about' means to me?

Do you know how long I might have been considering something before I ever made a post about it?

Why don't you go play Inspector Gadget or Maxwell Smart somewhere else for a good while until you gain some...

Nevermind.

And what IF my memory would not be exactly accurate as to exact timing?

Does that change the nature of CTE or TOI?

What is your your purpose?

How long did CJ talk about TOI before he released the DVD?

What year did you graduate high school?

I only bothered to answer the somewhat pertinent questions.

My experiences with both CTE & TOI occurred over much time from intrigue to actual interest, to giving them a look see, to giving them a brief try, to putting them on a shelf for awhile as I was competing, etc.

Wrong. You were hanging all over TOI the minute it was introduced on these forums. You didn't really show any major "interest" in CTE until after you came back from being banned, and it didn't take long before you were bad mouthing it at every turn because you couldn't grasp a simple concept of the system.

Do you know what the word 'about' means? Do you know what the word 'about' means to me?

I know what it means, but apparently you have your own definition for it. 6+ months is NOT "about the same time."

What is your your purpose?

To call you out when you make stuff up.

How long did CJ talk about TOI before he released the DVD?

I don't know exactly. A few months would be my guess.

What year did you graduate high school?

2003

Colin Colenso · Jan 28, 2015

Straightpool_99 said:
Apart from the 2 rail rule, which I don't feel is any good on any size table, I wouldn't like these rules on ANY OTHER than a tight snooker table. Still I would absolutely not watch it on TV. It would be like watching a marathon: Sure it is a great accomplishment, but still you are just watching a man running. In your game you would be watching to men slamming the balls in on a huge, wide open table as hard as they could in some cases. It would be plain ugly to me from an aestetical point of view, as well as boring from a tactical one. Shooting balls hard for it's own sake is not pretty or exciting! We call people who do that bangers...

Good points Straightpool!

The BIH aspect is to completely remove safety play from the game. Golf, bowling and many other successful sports don't have safety, so why ought not there be a non-safety billiard sport as an option?

The 2 rail aspect is because running a rack on big pocket tables is too easy with BIH for pros. I play the game mainly on a 7 foot english pool table, which is tighter, so it makes a good challenge.

I would say 80% of my shots have some finesse and aren't hit very hard. The shots often require a lot of spin to create the angles required. There are some power shots of course, and some caroming and combinations to promote balls. Any ball hitting 2 rails is ok, including the OB, such as a bank plus CB hits 1 rail.

I tend to turn off when I watch a rotation game once a player has shape with 8 balls left unless I see a real challenge ahead. Dribble, stop, soft draw, dribble, roll off rail, OUT. Show it to beginners and they say "big deal, I can do that".

Re the IPT 8 Ball: Had some things right, but the nap cloths were not slow as they were brand new and they slid on the rails so badly that side english would barely take unless going hard at right angles into a rail.

I had the IPT nap cloth on my home table and within a month it was slow and super grippy, as I lived in a humid region (Shanghai). The top 10 in the world champs were making about 55-70% legal wet breaks and running out around 70-80% first visit after break. So break & run% of top 10 was 40% to 45%, which pretty much made it a breaking game. My wet break % was around 70 but my running out skills weren't at the top level so my overall B&R was 32%. I really struggled to adapt to the slipperiness of the rails.

Colin Colenso · Jan 28, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
Also the rules make a difference. 'Two Shot Shoot Out' requires much more advanced shot making than "one foul" - this is without a doubt, players these days play safe, however, playing the original rules they would HAVE to play aggressively.

The push out after break in 9 ball often leads to some of the best moments of the match, and I love that 2 foul encourages going for challenging shots that present a risk of getting hooked.... not to mention, I could do without the back and forth kicking where the game often gets decided by a half roll of a ball.

ENGLISH! · Jan 28, 2015

BeiberLvr said:
I only bothered to answer the somewhat pertinent questions.

Wrong. You were hanging all over TOI the minute it was introduced on these forums. You didn't really show any major "interest" in CTE until after you came back from being banned, and it didn't take long before you were bad mouthing it at every turn because you couldn't grasp a simple concept of the system.

I know what it means, but apparently you have your own definition for it. 6+ months is NOT "about the same time."

To call you out when you make stuff up.

I don't know exactly. A few months would be my guess.

2003

EDIT:

Apparently my post was somehow inappropriate. I don't exactly know why other than being off of the thread topic but I was responding to an off topic post.

Sorry to everyone for the interruption.

Straightpool_99 · Jan 28, 2015

Colin Colenso said:
Good points Straightpool!

The BIH aspect is to completely remove safety play from the game. Golf, bowling and many other successful sports don't have safety, so why ought not there be a non-safety billiard sport as an option?

The 2 rail aspect is because running a rack on big pocket tables is too easy with BIH for pros. I play the game mainly on a 7 foot english pool table, which is tighter, so it makes a good challenge.

I would say 80% of my shots have some finesse and aren't hit very hard. The shots often require a lot of spin to create the angles required. There are some power shots of course, and some caroming and combinations to promote balls. Any ball hitting 2 rails is ok, including the OB, such as a bank plus CB hits 1 rail.

I tend to turn off when I watch a rotation game once a player has shape with 8 balls left unless I see a real challenge ahead. Dribble, stop, soft draw, dribble, roll off rail, OUT. Show it to beginners and they say "big deal, I can do that".

Re the IPT 8 Ball: Had some things right, but the nap cloths were not slow as they were brand new and they slid on the rails so badly that side english would barely take unless going hard at right angles into a rail.

I had the IPT nap cloth on my home table and within a month it was slow and super grippy, as I lived in a humid region (Shanghai). The top 10 in the world champs were making about 55-70% legal wet breaks and running out around 70-80% first visit after break. So break & run% of top 10 was 40% to 45%, which pretty much made it a breaking game. My wet break % was around 70 but my running out skills weren't at the top level so my overall B&R was 32%. I really struggled to adapt to the slipperiness of the rails.

I must say it is most interesting to get insight on the IPT format, from someone who was actually competing in it!

I guess to reduce the "new cloth slipperyness" maybe they should have some kind of machine to raise the nap of the cloth, maybe repeatedly go over the cloth with some kind of rotating brush?

A lot of luck will be involved in pro 8 ball on US tables any way we spin it. The chineese eight ball is probably the best attempt I've seen to make 8 ball a game for the pros. It will be a hard sell in the US because of the table type, but it's a good game to watch, and familiar enough for the average viewer. Maybe this is the ticket...

I disagree with your views on safeties. I feel pools best feature is the duel aspect, there is both strategy and raw talent involved at the top level. I played bowling for 6 months and I was bored out of my skull. Didn't touch the bowling equipment for many years after that. I also quit competitive shooting for much the same reasons. The weird part is I never feel the urge to pick up those activities again. Selling my pistol was a huge relief as there is a major hassle to own one in my country. And the balls and shoes etc from my bowling days are untouched in my closet with my discarded aiming DVDs.

If I go 2 weeks without pool I get restless and need a fix.. I couldn't possibly imagine going to the range ever again.

Colin Colenso · Jan 28, 2015

Straightpool_99 said:
I must say it is most interesting to get insight on the IPT format, from someone who was actually competing in it!

I guess to reduce the "new cloth slipperyness" maybe they should have some kind of machine to raise the nap of the cloth, maybe repeatedly go over the cloth with some kind of rotating brush?

A lot of luck will be involved in pro 8 ball on US tables any way we spin it. The chineese eight ball is probably the best attempt I've seen to make 8 ball a game for the pros. It will be a hard sell in the US because of the table type, but it's a good game to watch, and familiar enough for the average viewer. Maybe this is the ticket...

I disagree with your views on safeties. I feel pools best feature is the duel aspect, there is both strategy and raw talent involved at the top level. I played bowling for 6 months and I was bored out of my skull. Didn't touch the bowling equipment for many years after that. I also quit competitive shooting for much the same reasons. I stuck with pool, though...

Maybe they should have left the IPT tables in a grimy pool room for 12 months so they played like those good old tables with grippy rails and clingy tight jaws.

I like the Chinese 8 ball, but those super fast cloths were allowing players to wet break over 80% and some of them shoot so well that their overall B&R was over 50%. Too high for my liking and I'm not a big fan of making pockets tighter as it turns away beginners from the game. I just think the sport needs harder games, where the break plays a less significant role. Even the top snooker pros are making the game too easy, with the percentage for first good visit wins getting to 50% and over in some matches.

I feel the same about bowling, shooting... and I'd add darts. But those games are pretty one-dimensional compared to the wide range of offensive shots that can be executed in billiards.

I enjoy some safety aspects in games and think there will always be a market for them, but I just prefer the thrill of the big shot and the games we currently play don't provide much incentive to attempt them, let alone develop them.

Here are some 2 rail (and beyond) shots that should put a smile on the face of even the most defensive billiardist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L7UIWilR8g

Ron Swanson · Jan 29, 2015

Feely beats sciencey every time.

know feel, no science.

Mr. Wilson · Jan 29, 2015

ENGLISH! said:
Pertinent? To Whom? To you? You only get to decide what is & is not pertinent TO YOU.

Or...should you say that you only answered the questions that you wanted to answer & you did not answer the questions that you did not want to answer.

Do you know that there is a difference between making something up & not remembering exactly correctly? Hence sometimes the use of non definitive words or phrases.

See... you now remembered that I was not here for a year & hence could not post for that year.

Did you know that it has somewhat recently been discovered that the human brain does not completely physically mature until around the age of 26 or even possibly later in some?

Does the timing of how I remember things happening, right or wrong, have anything to do with the nature of CTE or TOI?

Since you did not want to answer that question, the answer is no it does not.

Since you did not want to answer the question as to what is was your purpose, might I suggest that you were just trolling & trying to incite me to an emotional response with which to use for further incitement.

Please see the earlier statement about the age of maturity for the human brain.

So what exactly does this have to do with the price of rice in China?
Add constructively or stay out of the conversation.

Demanding answers does not apply.

ENGLISH! · Jan 29, 2015

Interesting.

I did not see the post to which I was responding as being constructive.

In any case, I respect your judgement & I've edited the post that you've judged to be objectionable.

I'll try to use my own better judgement in the future.

ENGLISH! · Jan 29, 2015

(((Satori))) said:
Or I should say what but I have a simple but serious question.

What stops PJ from being able to pocket balls as effectively as CJ?

I'd say that PJ does not have the 'knowledge of feel' that CJ does.

But that's just a guess & I could be wrong.

BilliardsAbout · Jan 29, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
There's a lot less thinking at the championship level than you've been led to believe.

Imagine a child insistent on understanding how to walk before they take their first step (they would be still crawling to work in the morning perhaps?)

How about a bicycle, would you need to know the specific physics involved or would it potentially slow down the learning process.

I couldn't possibly explain in writing what it takes to become a 2nd Degree Blackbelt to someone unwilling to experience it.......pool is the same scenario.

Yes, and thank you for your comments.

I'm writing an article yet again (for publication next month) on how to think about a run/sequence/shots--this time, seven free balls and the 8-ball. Last night I played on my own for about four hours. Only every few racks did I have to "think" in-depth about sequencing or a combination shot, etc. I made a four ball combo to cinch solids once after the break (yeah, me). I mean, do I really need to do another article on why corner pockets are often more desirable than side pockets or what a "triangle" is...? No, not at AZ for people on this subforum, but someone needs to read that article elsewhere...

The hard part is exactly what you wrote, trying to explain something that becomes ineffable. Therefore, articles. "Matt, how did you know so fast to take the 5-ball first? Why didn't it take you long to stroke to perfect position off that rail for the six?" Same with aim as you know! I have to mix the fact that personally, I "bend over and shoot" and PDQ with teaching the concepts to others at my site.

So, true story, I'm taking a potty break last night and I think of Ralph Guldahl, a fantastic golf pro in the 1930s who was on track to BE Ben Hogan or better, and who after he was asked to write an instruction book to teach the masses his skills, fell apart in his own game.

Lord forbid I do that...

But you hit indirectly on a "thing", CJ. Teaching how to walk when it can hardly be taught... I had an e-mail this morning from someone who is very angry with a friend of mine who promised aim help in a clinic but then was indecipherable in the clinic. So I'm back to being a peacemaker and trying to break down and simplify... not the complex into the simple... but the ineffable, the indescribable, into sheer comprehensible, juicy goodness!

But the original point of my post was I found it slightly upsetting that you were compared with PJ as truly different when you both can think and play, just with perhaps different "settings"...

Thanks for letting me rant.

BilliardsAbout · Jan 29, 2015

In a word, yeah. Although Lee's Jeet Kune book gives you some specific things to think about as well as "feel"!

CJ Wiley · Jan 29, 2015

Why are corner pockets more desirable than side pockets?

BilliardsAbout said:
Yes, and thank you for your comments.

I'm writing an article yet again (for publication next month) on how to think about a run/sequence/shots--this time, seven free balls and the 8-ball. Last night I played on my own for about four hours. Only every few racks did I have to "think" in-depth about sequencing or a combination shot, etc. I made a four ball combo to cinch solids once after the break (yeah, me). I mean, do I really need to do another article on why corner pockets are often more desirable than side pockets or what a "triangle" is...? No, not at AZ for people on this subforum, but someone needs to read that article elsewhere...

The hard part is exactly what you wrote, trying to explain something that becomes ineffable. Therefore, articles. "Matt, how did you know so fast to take the 5-ball first? Why didn't it take you long to stroke to perfect position off that rail for the six?" Same with aim as you know! I have to mix the fact that personally, I "bend over and shoot" and PDQ with teaching the concepts to others at my site.

So, true story, I'm taking a potty break last night and I think of Ralph Guldahl, a fantastic golf pro in the 1930s who was on track to BE Ben Hogan or better, and who after he was asked to write an instruction book to teach the masses his skills, fell apart in his own game.

Lord forbid I do that...

But you hit indirectly on a "thing", CJ. Teaching how to walk when it can hardly be taught... I had an e-mail this morning from someone who is very angry with a friend of mine who promised aim help in a clinic but then was indecipherable in the clinic. So I'm back to being a peacemaker and trying to break down and simplify... not the complex into the simple... but the ineffable, the indescribable, into sheer comprehensible, juicy goodness!

But the original point of my post was I found it slightly upsetting that you were compared with PJ as truly different when you both can think and play, just with perhaps different "settings"...

Thanks for letting me rant.

Do people really comment on you not taking long to stroke to perfect position?

Why are corner pockets more desirable than side pockets?

duckie · Jan 29, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
Do people really comment on you not taking long to stroke to perfect position?

Why are corner pockets more desirable than side pockets?

Because people are afraid of them therefore side pockets are a weakness to them. They do not understand that being able to pocket a ball equally well in any pocket allows for more shots options then always limiting your self to just certain pockets.

It has nothing to with the corners being more desirable but more about a person style of play which can not be applied to all. Their style pf play has the side pockets as a weakness whereas it is a strength to those than can use the side pocket whenever.

BTW, in straight pool, the side pocket can be used fora break shot.

BilliardsAbout · Jan 29, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
Do people really comment on you not taking long to stroke to perfect position?

Why are corner pockets more desirable than side pockets?

My nickname is Quick Draw.

Again from a teaching perspective for beginners and intermediates, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, in general players find working the cue ball a little easier when an object ball is headed to a corner and not a side pocket. That's a very general statement, I know. Of course, I'd also be the first to admit that once someone has tried (and sunk) a lot of tough-angled cut shots into side pockets they start to develop power tools and use the sides with less fear.

I fear I must again apologize for being a little general and speaking at AZ as if the typical AZ player is a beginner or intermediate. Most of the people who haunt this sub-forum are expert players and commentators.

Personally, I like all six pockets, but if I was forced to pick a favorite, it is the top left pocket at Table #7 in Amsterdam Billiards. Or the bottom right corner pocket of Table #11 at Chris's Billiards in Chicago. (Matt giggles with a hand over his mouth like a little kid at his own stupid pun.)

Sloppy Pockets · Jan 29, 2015

duckie said:
It's obvious that you have never done one of those jaw dropping shots.

Oh, is it? OK, if you say so.

Now, I may not be able to make those amazing 2' straight-ins to a corner pocket like you've shown us all, but I can make a few shots here and there.

Why?

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